User talk:1337 B33FC4K3

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1. 1

See this is why people have a problem with you.

Look at this edit summary of yours. How is that anything but actively disrespectful? How could you possibly think that writing that kind of thing is a good idea? Most of your edits are good edits by themselves, but your attitude as you make them is not acceptable. Toomai Glittershine The Xanthic 12:51, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

This particular user keeps adding the same wrong information (essentially making up buffs). I think it's become enough of a problem that I personally call him out for it.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 12:56, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

Regardless of the veracity of what someone is saying, I'm sure you should be capable of getting things resolved without resorting to antagonism. Toomai Glittershine The Different 13:00, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

An inquiry

I would like to formally ask what happened in your life that has caused you to act like such a jackass to others. Prior to my previous departure in 2012, I remember you being a rather upstanding individual, who could help out others interested in the competitive Smash techniques, as well as tell others about when their personalities and such were harming their development. Ironically, it seems you have begun acting like those you chastised: Stubborn, obnoxious, constantly pissing and moaning, and frankly no fun to talk to. What exactly happened that caused such a radical personality change?

If you don't want to say what happened, that's fine, but at least try to minimise how often you act like a stubborn and obnoxious jerk who constantly pisses and moans about everything to others.

--- Monsieur Crow, Author Extraordinaire, 13:41, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

It's really petty to blame life for your problems, but I guess the 1 thing that has caused me to lose faith in the userbase here was when I had a falling out with OT and the rest of the users just blindly supported him and paid no heed to my thoughts. Around that time I had finally figured out the inner workings of Smash (and fighting games in general) and what skills it took to be good. I also researched heavily into character design. With regards to my character Marth, I realized he didn't have the tools needed to win consistently in Brawl. I presented my findings to OT and from there countless wars were raised. To this day, I seriously doubt he or anyone else here understands where I'm coming from.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 14:22, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

So basically, you and other users have what is known as a "having different opinions about what is arguably an arbitrary subject", and you decide that the only way to get back at this is to be excessively snippy and rude to everyone else...Gotcha.

I say, doing that is just as petty as blaming your personal life. It just makes you look like a child throwing a temper tantrum in a store because their mum won't buy them an extra bag of sweets. But whatever, it's obvious you have no interest in changing, given that OT is inactive and no one frankly cares to debate this arbitrary subject, so I will leave you be.

--- Monsieur Crow, Author Extraordinaire, 15:05, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

You can be mad at my actions but a character's potential in the game is an objective quality, assuming that the game does not change significantly. Marth cannot be both good and bad.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 16:44, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

These edit summaries

These seem a little harsh, don't you think? They're on the verge of, if not are, personal attacks, which aren't allowed. Please don't write edit summaries like these. Thank you. Rtzxy Reflect!!! 15:45, 3 November 2014 (EST)

Before you defend him, you should know that this particular user keeps updating the pages I edit with the same false information he has yet to justify. He is likely a poor player so his word of mouth isn't sufficient proof. He needs to give me frame data. I have reverted his edits multiple times and explained why he is wrong each time and he fails to listen. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 16:03, 3 November 2014 (EST)

For starters, in the first edit summary I gave, all you said was "You're all dumb. Especially you, Epsilon". You did not give a reason there, just a on-the-verge-of-a-personal attack. Second, that's no excuse to say those things in your edit summaries. And third, I will not defend him; he can be reverted, however you should leave that negative commentary out of your edit summaries; if it persists, just leave a message on his talk page (without personal attacks or negative commentary). Rtzxy Reflect!!! 16:14, 3 November 2014 (EST)

I want to point out that the user Epsilon has a pretty long history of constantly adding useless/pointless information to the changes section in character articles, constantly ignoring users, and adding crap to said mainspace articles that obviously isn't encyclopedic. For reference, see his talk page, his contributions, and the histories of certain SSB4 character pages (Peach (SSB4) in particular; Ctrl+F Epsilon and it'll be somewhere down there). While the remarks in these edit summaries aren't necessary, a lot of users are sick of Epsilon's ignorance and I think something should be done about it by now. Scr7(talk · contribs) 16:33, 3 November 2014 (EST)

I get that Epsilon constantly adds unnecessary/useless information to pages. However, my original point of all this is the fact that edit summaries like this are uncalled for and shouldn't be said, as some are on the verge of violating SW:NPA. Rtzxy Reflect!!! 18:18, 3 November 2014 (EST)

I really am perplexed why you find me to be a bigger problem than him. I'm not exactly bullying a saint here. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 18:21, 3 November 2014 (EST)

"I really am perplexed why you find me to be a bigger problem than him."

I never said that, nor I think that. Yes, Epsilon is becoming a problem here, but what I'm saying is that you should handle his edits a little less harsher than summaries like this. Simple explain to him (without negative feedback) at what he did wrong, and remember to assume good faith. Simple as that, no need for negative commentary like this. Rtzxy Reflect!!! 18:27, 3 November 2014 (EST)

Given his continued ignorance of my reasons for reverts, I have little reason to be patient with him. Since he didn't listen to my reasoning the first 10 times, I will assume he will not listen the next 10 times. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 20:40, 3 November 2014 (EST)

True, but that's no excuse to resort to on-the-verge-of-if-not-are-personal attacks, or personal attacks in general. No matter how much Epsilon screws up, you shouldn't do stuff like this. Rtzxy Reflect!!! 21:20, 3 November 2014 (EST)

You're not really seeing things the way I see them. You are treating Epsilon like a saint. Epsilon does not have the right to my patience. His actions are just as if not more inexcusable than mine. Brian^{Don't try me!} 23:17, 3 November 2014 (EST)

He may not have the right to your patience, but that doesn't mean you start personally attacking him. Also, I'm not treating him as a "saint"; in fact, I believe that he is becoming a problem and that something needs to be done. However, it's your edit summaries that are a little extreme. What I've been saying is that you should be less harsh with your edit summaries, no matter what Epsilon or some other troll/vandal does. You still can't start personally attacking other users, even to vandals/trolls, no matter what they do. Rtzxy Reflect!!! 23:33, 3 November 2014 (EST)

You're not getting the point. I think we know that Epsilon is a problem; we're not arguing on that. You're not a bigger problem than him, but because of what I've seen, we know these edit summaries are a problem, which is what we're arguing about. Your edit summaries were way too harsh; it doesn't matter how long you've been dealing with him, "Oh god, could you be any dumber Epsilon" is basically calling him mentally retarded, and is still a personal attack. Just treat him like Brandondorf.

Oh, and, you got a fact wrong in your second edit summary - Brawl physics allow heavier characters to survive the charged up smash up to about 80% in Brawl. Qwerty (talk) 23:32, 3 November 2014 (EST)

If he's becoming a problem, why don't you stop wasting your time dealing with me and talk to him, Rtzxy? You'd solve both this problem and his delusional edits. Also Qwerty, why are you treating him as if he's a respectable and intelligent editor? He is neither, given that he keeps adding the same erroneous edits and can't seem to understand my reasons for reverts. I wonder if he even reads them. Also Qwerty you are wrong about the up smash fact. Falling speed, not weight, is the primary component in determining how well you survive vertical hits. Remember everyone is floaty in Brawl. The only character who could possibly survive a fully charged up smash at 80% would be Dedede and it would have to be on a stage with a really high ceiling like Yoshi's Island. Brian^{Don't try me!} 00:19, 4 November 2014 (EST)

Eh the up smash thing is false, my bad. But we're not talking about what Epsilon is doing here. He's a problem, his edits are disruptive, but that's not the problem. You can deal with him on your own time. This section is talking about the problems in the way you're acting, which is a different matter. If he doesn't listen to your reverts, keep reverting his edits until he gets them, and leave a message on his talk page if it gets necessary. The edits he's made don't change the definition of a personal attack, which you've just done. We're trying to get across to you that you need to tone down on your edit summaries, especially towards other users.

I think the only other thing I can reiterate here is what I said last post. Go review that :D. Qwerty (talk) 01:18, 4 November 2014 (EST)

That is not the way to go. The problem here is that Epsilon is ignoring, perhaps deliberately at this point, all the evidence and warnings provided to him. We can't keep reverting his edits because he just won't listen. I don't think that what Brian said (and tends to say in general) was appropriate. However, I do agree that we need to be harsher on Epsilon. He's barely bordering the line between good faith and ignorance, and action needs to be taken to make it known that he needs to improve. --Timson622222 (talk) 02:09, 4 November 2014 (EST)

Simply put, Brian: you can be harsh to Epsilon, just don't add personal attacks in your comments. Rtzxy Reflect!!! 14:57, 4 November 2014 (EST)

Notice

I suggest that you should read SW:NPA, because what I saw in you edit summary, is you calling someone a dumbass. So let me be clear: STOP ADDING PERSONAL ATTACKS IN EDIT SUMMERIES WHILE UNDOING AN EDIT BY A USER you can be harsh, but don't add personal attacks to it. Thank you Smashworker101 (talk) 18:01, 18 January 2015 (EST)

I'm not siding with the IP that wrongly edited the Falco (SSB4) or anything but can't you see from above that you've been called out numerous times for disrespectful edit summaries? Your undo edits are rightful but can your attitude be less of an ass about it? Dots (talk) The GameCube 19:18, 18 January 2015 (EST)

Quite frankly, I'm tired of people being dumb.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 18:02, 19 January 2015 (EST)

"Your undo edits are rightful but can your attitude be less of an ass about it?"

You shouldn't be calling someone an ass either. Awesome Cardinal 2000 20:59, 19 January 2015 (EST)

So by expressing that this wiki's users are dumb, you unnecessarily call them out in an harsh, offensive way if they make an incompetent edit. I see. I guess you don't mind your peers seeing you as a jerk who rudely attacks those who does you wrong for your revenge. Would you like to be treated this way and have people disrespect you just because you don't respect them back? I have no right to change your attitude but its something to consider. Dots (talk) The Zerg Rush 18:23, 19 January 2015 (EST)

Not my fault people don't listen to the facts I present.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 19:42, 19 January 2015 (EST)

OK, 1. Not every user has seen your "facts". 2. A lot of what you say is opinionated and there have been times where you've been wrong. And 3. when you're mean to IPs and users it makes them gravitate away from the wiki and makes the wiki seem less "open". I admit there are many cases where you're correct, but when you act like a dick about it, it harms the wiki as a whole. Laikue (talk | contribs) 19:47, 19 January 2015 (EST)

Dude, character viability is not an opinion; a character cannot both be bad and good at the same time. And barring a few frame data mistakes, when's the last time I've been wrong about Marth, Falco, or anything related to high level play?--Brian^{Don't try me!} 19:53, 19 January 2015 (EST)

You know, we respect your knowledge and we don't see a problem with it (When it comes to your arguments vs. OT's, I personally side with you now), but your hurtful douchebag attitude is the problem. Dots (talk) The Medic 20:09, 19 January 2015 (EST)

I think Brian is right because he is surrounded by a bunch of idiots who clearly don't know what they're doing. Why bother introducing them to Smash if they weren't going to man up to begin with? In this situation, we can liken Brian to an anteater that is being surrounded by the equivalency of a few ants attempting to take down an anteater; this anteater is a beacon of knowledge, blazing across a black sea of ignorance.

As you can see, it is up to Brian to be the hero that Smash Wiki deserves, but not the want that is wanted. 108.194.146.62 22:31, 26 January 2015 (EST)

Yes, that is very true. Brian is the one who shall win the Goy wars for us in order to stop the evil Elsas. He is the chosen one to bring balance to the Smash community and destroy the Elsa leader Ninten in 20XX. Yes, prophecy says that Brian is the hero of all of Smash. Dots (talk) The Scout 22:42, 26 January 2015 (EST)

How mature of all of you.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 00:11, 27 January 2015 (EST)

lol--Starman125 (talk) 00:30, 27 January 2015 (EST)

Calling me hypocritical? Who's the 1 who actually backs up what they say? You've got nerve if you think you can call me out on that.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 01:24, 27 January 2015 (EST)

I do believe that your overreaction was quite unnecessary, given the context and circumstances presented here. Staying on a horse that is taller than the average standard might prove to be the superior course of action in this situation, and I recommend that you do so instead of believing that every single comment made here is done to provoke and ridicule you. "Come at me bruh" is neither a reasonable nor valid attitude to maintain at this time. 108.194.146.62 03:09, 27 January 2015 (EST)

If I may...

Looking at the links provided on this page, and looking through the history of here, I did notice a bit of...overreacting. And all but one of your edits seem to target one specific user. You ever heard the saying, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"? I think that would definitely fit here. And even so, I don't think any of them were necessary. You should probably think of what you're wanting to say is necessary. Aidan the Aura Master 09:51, 27 January 2015 (EST)

I don't really tolerate with stubborn idiots and jerks who think they are superior to those they think are weaklings, and I don't receive them too well and I'm pretty sure others don't like it either despite this being the Internet. They don't show any respect to me or others and that's the sad thing. Do they receive respect back? If only because of their attitude to everyone else. What I and a lot of other users are trying to point out to Brian is that his reactions to undoing an edit is rather, hostile, in his edit summaries. I like how he's warning users about wrongful edits but he does this with a straight out jerk about it to an extent of personally attacking someone. Dots (talk) The Coffee Maker 10:28, 27 January 2015 (EST)

Seeing your recent history here, and knowing you in general, all I can say is this, and I will take action if you keep it up. And to Toomai and Miles, users shouldn't be having to contact an inactive admin outside the wiki to get a problem user dealt with, step your user handling up, especially when I see Toomai that you told Brian to stop three months ago, and have not followed through with not even another warning when he kept it up and other users are making a fuss here about it.

Also Brian, I seriously laughed when I read the previous section with Crow, and seeing you're blaming me for your attitude problems and are holding a grudge over some trivial shit. Omega Tyrant 21:07, 29 January 2015 (EST)

I don't hold a grudge against you, though I still believe you are still very much uninformed about the topics we debated about. That's beside the point though. I simply told Crow our countless debates have biased the majority of the user base into thinking my opinions are unfounded. I find that incredibly hypocritical since I'm one of the few users here who go to great lengths to find information from objective sources. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 00:38, 30 January 2015 (EST)

"though I still believe you are still very much uninformed about the topics we debated about"

"I find that incredibly hypocritical since I'm one of the few users here who go to great lengths to find information from objective sources."

That's precious, coming from the guy adamant to the end that Brawl Marth's grab sucked just because it wasn't stupidly OP like Melee Marth's grab, even though it ranked in the top 5 grabs in the game by actual objective measures. Omega Tyrant 18:39, 31 January 2015 (EST)

You don't understand shit if you think Melee Marth's grab is OP. You're the 1 that fucked up if you got grabbed buddy.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 02:21, 1 February 2015 (EST)

Fine perhaps I should explain to the uninformed why Marth is fine having a long grab range. Simply put, it fits his design of having a neutral game where he has to stay safe and maintain his distance from someone. Marth's goal in neutral is to move forward but without the intent of getting a first hit. Marth cannot be the first to commit in neutral. This is because his moves, while are fast startup wise, have very very punishable endlag, have really short duration, do not cover a constant area of space (because the hitboxes move in arcs), and are crouch cancel-able if Marth is close to his opponents. Thus Marth's goal is to get hits not by committing first, but by punishing commitments, which he pressures opponents into doing by moving forward. This includes the way he gets grabs; the most common way you see Marths get grabs is baiting whiffs with dash dances and grabbing the whiffed attack from afar. Having a normal grab range means that he would have to actually go for raw grabs out neutral, aka hard reading when someone is going to shield, roll or spot dodge and then committing to the grab. That violates the aforementioned playstyle Marth is designed to do.

Additionally another 1 of Marth's weaknesses in neutral is that most of his moves are vulnerable to crouch canceling + ASDI Down. If Marth is close to someone, almost every single one of his moves can be punished by crouch cancelling it, ASDI'ing down, or optimally both. Using either prevents the opponent from moving far when Marth hits them and allows them to punish the endlag of the moves. There are only 4 moves that are not vulnerable to those options at any percent: tipper hitbox of forward smash, tipper hitbox of down air, tipper hitbox of down tilt, and grab. The first 2 are way too risky and situational to throw out in neutral, effectively leaving Marth with only 2 reliable ways to deal with crouch cancel + ASDI down. Yes, the long reach is necessary. It covers the spacings where Marth's down tilt wouldn't be able punish crouch canceling. At these spacings, the opponent can just run up to the place where the farthest nontipper hitbox of d tilt hits and choose to crouch or shield. Without the long grab range Marth cannot punish this. And yes, this is fair because it's a mixup. If your opponent expects you to think they will try to avoid the tipper down tilt and run the spacing I describe above, they can simply run to the place where tipper down tilt would hit instead. Marth's grab will miss at this spacing and you are free to punish the whiff. Do you see the Yomi? Having a shorter grab range would completely nullify this mixup and leave Marth with effectively only 1 reliable move in neutral. Having only 1 good move in neutral means you have a bad neutral because your opponent can just avoid the spacings where that 1 move will work. That's why characters are given mixups. I shouldn't have to explain this to a player of your skill, really.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 03:13, 1 February 2015 (EST)

Apparently, Marth's grab range in Melee was larger than Yoshi's grab range. Any character that didn't have a tether grab probably would have benefited from having a grab with that range to begin with. LimitCrown (talk) 14:24, 1 February 2015 (EST)

Yoshi's grab isn't a tether grab dude. It's actually not that much shorter; the difference is about 1 unit. And the only reason Marth got that grab in the gif was because Yoshi has a really large hurtbox on his nose. Put Fox in Yoshi's place and Marth would not have gotten the grab.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 16:18, 1 February 2015 (EST)

I laughed at how much you missed OT's point. Key words you used were "uninformed" and "objective" to describe how little he knew yet you were so focused on letting everyone know a Top 5 grab reach was awful. 08:32, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

this

you realize that you can't force people to not edit this page without your permission, right? Smashworker101 (talk) 11:32, 7 February 2015 (EST)

This user has a penchant for adding erroneous information. I'm suggesting he talk to me first before making more errors.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 12:12, 7 February 2015 (EST)

What kind of errors? Untrue buffs, nerfs, and\or changes? Smashworker101 (talk) 12:19, 7 February 2015 (EST)

All of the above. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 12:20, 7 February 2015 (EST)

Although it could be false, but it could be proven true in some circumstances unless if there was proof. Smashworker101 (talk) 12:24, 7 February 2015 (EST)

He doesn't give proof. I on the other hand always present facts to back up my claims. I can give you essays on why Marth is a terrible character in Smash 4 if you so wish.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 12:34, 7 February 2015 (EST)

First of all:

1. I don't care about your opinion about Marth.

2. It's obvious that he doesn't give proof, what I'm actually saying is that you can't force people to not edit the Marth (SSB4) page without your permission. It's unnecessary even if they make errors, untrue facts, vandalism, invisible texts, facts in another language, etc. it will all get reverted. Smashworker101 (talk) 12:48, 7 February 2015 (EST)

Think about it this way. If I get him to discuss changes with me, it reduces the janitor work needed on the wiki. Reverts demonstrate an uninformed userbase and thus should be minimized. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 12:52, 7 February 2015 (EST)

You know, not every person that will do a wrong edit has to not touch the Marth page. They don't know why its wrong until they have their edit reverted. Can you give them a reason for reverting? Dots (talk) The Falcon 12:56, 7 February 2015 (EST)

An actual reason you mean Dots from Earthbound. Smashworker101 (talk) 13:02, 7 February 2015 (EST)

Well, at least something to tell him that he does not control all the Marth pages lol. Dots (talk) The Cannon 13:38, 7 February 2015 (EST)

I'll concede defeat if any of you guys can prove me wrong about Marth. But really only Kadano could do that. Good luck. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 16:49, 7 February 2015 (EST)

So only you and maybe Kadano are allowed to touch the Marth (SSB4) and Falco (SSB4) pages eh? But ain't these pages belong to a wiki where anybody can edit? And dude, for the last time since when did we ever say that you are wrong about Marth? Dots (talk) The Team Fortress 2 17:03, 7 February 2015 (EST)

Those pages belong to the wiki and everyone has the right to edit those pages not just you. Smashworker101 (talk) 17:32, 7 February 2015 (EST)

Praise the Wiki's Savior

It is said that there was a player who had lost with Marth for twelve games in a row, and though he had spent all his living on coaching, he could not be taught to play Melee by anyone. He came up behind Brian and touched the fringe of his garment, and immediately his knowledge of the game increased tenfold. And Brian said, “Who was it that touched me?” When all denied it, Falco said, “Calm yourself Einstein, the crowds surround you and are pressing in on you!” But Brian said, “Someone touched me, for I perceive that knowledge has gone out from me.” And when the player saw that he was not hidden, he came trembling, and falling down before him declared in the presence of all the people why he had touched him, and how he had immediately improved at Melee. And Brian said to him, “Son, your faith has made you not a noob; go in peace.”

Brian 8:43-48

108.194.146.62 19:58, 10 February 2015 (EST)

I can already tell that your not Conny because I posted on your talk page on where you live. Stop trolling people. Dots (talk) The Ball 20:03, 10 February 2015 (EST)

A well-meaning observant’s opinion on your recent behavior

Hi Brian, I believe to be a person that you have a certain level of respect for, as I have contributed quite a lot and in rather influencial ways, especially considering Melee-Marth. I can understand why you acted the way you recently did; I myself have often witnessed players with very limited knowledge expressing their opinion of the game as if it was a fact, which really is something that very few people can truly claim, and I do not consider myself as one of them, just somewhat close. Magus420 is the only one that I personally think is up to this level. (And HAL developers, on the off chance they are involved in the online Melee community.)

With that being said, my personal policy when dealing with such “ignorant” users is to treat them with respect by default, but ignore them as soon as interaction with them becomes nothing but a waste of time. Additionally, I personally have no interest in Smash 4, for I am a fan of Melee, not the Smash series in general, and I have found Smash 4 to contain none of the things I cherish in Melee. I do agree that during the total half hour I have played Smash 4, Marth felt like a really lackluster character, but in the end I am neither an expert on Smash 4 nor qualified to make claims about its tier list due to my dislike for the game itself, clouding my judgment on it.

If I may be so bold to give you a piece of personal advice, I recommend that you refrain from contributing Smash 4 knowledge. It seems your opinion of the game is similar to mine, and in the end working on subjects that one dislikes cannot end well (at least that is what I believe). I think we agree that we find Smash 4 to be a competitively bad game, at least when compared to Melee, so it is only appropriate for its articles to be of equally bad / inaccurate quality. By focusing on Melee articles in a respectful manner, the perception other people have of you improves, and so does the Melee community’s reputation—its community is obviously working hard to offer newcomers a large amount of concise, precise information. On the other hand, by indulging in somewhat hateful Smash 4 edits, you invoke the image of jealousy in readers’ minds, which leads to outcomes that you likely don’t actually want to see.

None of this is meant in a condescending way; this might as well be a piece of advice I’m sending back in time to myself six years ago. My only intention is to increase the standard of knowledge and level of interaction available for Melee, and I believe choosing to act in a way that is not accusing other people of their shortcomings and perhaps rash contributions that do more hard than good is a course of action you will advocate if reconsidering it and maybe view it with a bit of more distance. Kadano talk 20:58, 17 February 2015 (EST)

Hmm, reading your posts in this reddit thread makes me kind of reconsider. Your arguing was excellent and accurate, except for one minor thing*. In the end, the guy who said stupid shit and didn’t know the terms he was using got more upvotes than you, though. How do you feel about the Smash 4 community and Smash 4 in general? I personally try to avoid it, I don’t think I’d get along with someone who actually prefers it over Melee.

(*)Wavedash lengths are actually highly variable, but the controller’s octagon gate makes it hard to get the shortest and longest lengths. Sanding it out to a round or near-round improves this and makes it easier to reliably do certain wavedash lengths. It’s totally underused and very helpful to get things like wavedash oos to tipper fsmash or dsmash (these usually whiff when you do the standard notch length). Kadano talk 12:19, 20 February 2015 (EST)

You guessed correctly about my opinion of Smash 4. It plays absolutely nothing like Melee and I only enter tournaments where I'm guaranteed free money. I don't have a high opinion of the Smash 4 Community in general. Compared to the Melee community, the Smash 4 community lacks true leadership and its player base is highly uninformed about the mechanics of Smash 4 and more importantly how drastically different those mechanics are from Melee. These players are also the type of players who say Smash 4 is better because it requires more "mindgames" but I find that incredibly ironic because those same players don't even understand how neutral game and basic spacing. I realize this is partially excusable because those players are new, but when they talk about Smash 4 they get so many facts wrong about Melee. Of course there a few a Smash 4 players in the community who are aware of how different Melee is and I have a good deal of respect for them, but I'd wish they'd take more of an active role in making their community more mature. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 13:27, 20 February 2015 (EST)

Bottom 5 characters in Smash 4?

Smash 4 has a lot of balance. It's hard to discern the top 5 (outside Sheik and Diddy) and the bottom 5 (outside of Mii Swordfighter and Lucina), but since you've done some testing (evidenced by your knowledge on SDI), I'm curious about who you think are the top 5 worst characters in the game, and for what reasons. Blue Ninjakoopa 16:45, 19 February 2015 (EST)

Ask Mew2king not me. Diddy and Sheik are miles above the rest of the cast and Marth is pure trash now. That's all you really need to know if you want to win in this game.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 17:57, 19 February 2015 (EST)

It is a fact that Marth and Lucina ranks somewhere at 45-51 or so. :P Dots (talk) The Windows 19:12, 19 February 2015 (EST)

@Brian - Lol. Mew2king thinks Mario is top 5, when he's at best only ~top 20. I don't trust his judgement because he doesn't invest anything into the game competitively, hence just using Diddy. He has too much influence on the Smash 4 community, if he told them that Bowser is top tier everyone would follow that idea in lockstep and anyone challenging it would scolded on sight.

And Dots, Marth is significantly better than Lucina because of how her sword functions (strongest hit always connects, so her moves are extremely easy to punish out of shield). Marth is the worst he's ever been but is still assumed to be mid-tier, because everyone else in the game is weak, too, except Diddy Kong and Sheik (who isn't strong but has the best frame data). Blue Ninjakoopa 19:40, 19 February 2015 (EST)

BNK, hence that its a joke that Brian disliked Marth ever since Brawl released for nerfing him. But I do actually agree that he shouldn't rank that low like I said, maybe he's somewhere around 20-32 while Lucina is like around 28-36. I personally agree with Diddy Kong being the best despite my older brother disagreeing with me (but far from being said "broken" like many people think) but if not that, its guaranteed that Diddy Kong and Sheik are both Top 3. Dots (talk) The Missingno. 20:56, 19 February 2015 (EST)

He is in the middle tier that's closer to trash tier than the top tier. Marth will not be winning any large tournaments in the game except by patches or a really really REALLY lucky miracle. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 00:25, 20 February 2015 (EST)

Just so you know

We do have the numbers, and Fox does indeed run faster in SSB4 compared to Brawl. It's only a change from 2.08 to 2.184 though, so whether it's important enough to list is dubious. Toomai Glittershine The Engineer 20:36, 2 March 2015 (EST)

I see. I heard the units of distance changed in Smash 4. Could that be a confounding factor? Also this number describes full run and not dash right?--Brian^{Don't try me!} 20:57, 2 March 2015 (EST)

It's max run speed and not initial dash yes. I keep hearing people saying that "units changed", but it's a rather difficult concept to prove (did the units change, or did everything change around the units?). Toomai Glittershine The Emissary 22:00, 2 March 2015 (EST)

Marth

You really need to stop affecting articles such as Marth's with your biased opinion. The frame data and all the other crap you have to say about him doesn't matter; you can't just put in a statement about his value just based off of your own experience, and before we even have tiers. Just wanted to let you know that you must be objective in these articles. The admins clearly agree with me. Kid_X (talk) 06:52, 7 April 2015 (EDT)

dude calm down

You are seriously rude in your summaries. (i.e. "Who the (im not swearing even in a quote) is editing this page?" "Uh yea it does. That's how knockback is calculated. Are you an idiot?") The second one I kind of get but that comment was in no way necessary and definitely rude (even if it is partially true), and it gives the Wiki a bad image when someone's edits are met with swear bombs and name-calling. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 15:07, 23 June 2015 (EDT)

It's ok. He can get off scott free because reasons! 65.49.14.159 20:39, 29 June 2015 (EDT)

Yeah, because no one gives a shit if he at least makes good edits. Dots (talk) The Zerg 22:21, 30 June 2015 (EDT)

~~You cannot keep doing this.~~

"The only players who think Marth is midtier are bad players whose opinions don't matter."

That is sheer bias against Marth, pretty much on the verge of being a personal attack. There are players who are dedicated mains and would agree that Marth is midtier at least, even barring patches. You have shown no respect to anyone who plays Marth well, as well as Marth mains in general. It's like if he isn't Melee level, he's bad to you, stop. Edit: Now, I will not deny Marth leaves A LOT to be desired, I would even agree with you before I found some really good Marth players who utilize whatever comboing ability Marth may have left. Marth has extremely strong punishes, and even if some require pulling off a hard read or requiring baiting to do so, they are very rewarding. Shield Breaker is a lot more reliable than you think, it isn't second nature to avoid it (even when almost uncharged and untippered can break a shield that barely is damaged). I read somewhere you said Marth's recovery was comparable to a rock, it actually isn't (Dolphin Jump is terrible BTW, it is unnecessary at this point). I'm also not blind to the fact that Marth mains are obscure and are not experienced, but the Marth mains I face, big fish in a small pond they may be, are formidable opponents who KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING. Lucina is awful tho.

And why should I tell you who I am again?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.37.25.25 (talk • contribs) 05:32, August 9, 2015‎

1. Who are you?

2. Marth lacks both a neutral game and a consistent punish game in Smash 4. That's most definitely low tier. High tiers have both a strong neutral game and a consistent punish game. Midtiers have 1 or the other but not both. Low tiers have neither.

3. Name a legit pro who both has good results with Marth and thinks Marth is anything but low tier. No, Mr. E is a fraud. He hasn't beaten any top players or placed top 8 at a national using only Marth. Ally doesn't count either. He only uses the character as a joke to prove how much better he is than everyone.

4. Respect is earned. No Smash 4 Marth main has demonstrated an understanding of high level play and can use that knowledge to prove viability. No Marth apologist demonstrates the ability to explain the concept of frame advantage in neutral to me. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 12:56, 9 August 2015 (EDT)

If I may, the fact that you say that someone's opinions don't matter disgusts me. Grow up. Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura 13:43, 9 August 2015 (EDT)

Marth is low-mid tier at best (and that's a very generous estimate); he's not wrong about that. But yeah, Brian, that's a straight up violent edit summary and not appropriate. I get that you're frustrated by people claiming such, but still, try to keep things non-inflammatory. --Timson622222 (talk) 14:05, 9 August 2015 (EDT)

I would like to add a few things: 1. Unlike what you appear to think, Marth is far from the worst. It is extremely unlikely one will beat ZeRo's Sheik (but then again, even Mew2King hardly beats that), but there are characters with worse neutrals AND (key word: and, not or) punishes, like default Ganon, Dedede (worst neutral and no punishes), Mewtwo, Samus, Zelda, Dr. Mario, and Falco. Seriously, Dedede and Mewtwo are contenders for worst. Marth is far better than any of these characters.

Innovations in his metagame will come, look at him in Melee. Everyone thought he was trash until Ken came along. 2. Marth is bad due to inconvenient attributes? Well the same could be said for Melee Falco, I guess. Despite having the fastest falling speed in the series excluding PM Wolf, he does not have the highest vertical endurance because he is so light, which means anything kills him at 90%. Additionally, because of his fast fall speed, he had a recovery worse than Little Mac's. Not to mention how easy he was to combo. My point is, just because a character is weak in certain places does not mean that character is bad. In this case, Marth. 3. The Ken Combo isn't impossible dude-just practice. I've seen some beautiful Ken Combos by some really good Marths (the big fishes in the small pond). 4. Funny how I should have come across you, I first came to this talk page when OT advised you for anything Melee specific. Clearly he did not know what to expect.

It is unlikely Marth will spike (pun not intended), and I agree he is not great, but at the very least, he is upper-mid tier. Just keep your cool man.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.37.25.25 (talk • contribs) 6:52, August 9, 2015

You've stated alot of unsubstantiated claims and what ifs. You have not presented (or proven) any facts. First of all, your personal experience doesn't mean anything. You got beat by Marth players? Ok, that shows you don't know what you were doing, not that Marth has some secret potential waiting to be unlocked (seriously, think about how far fetched that conclusion is). You haven't stated any notable names and I doubt the players you are losing to won't make top 8 at the next EVO.

Second lets address all of your claims. You say Marth has a strong punish game? It's not just the magnitude of a punish that makes it strong. Consistency of a punish is what makes it valuable. You get hit by a tipper at die at 60? Well you got gimmicked and hard read. Hard reads are not reliable.

Shield Breaker not being punishable? Well check the frame data. It has a startup of 19 frames. The average human reaction time is 13 frames. Conclusion: your reaction time sucks. Also if it doesn't break a shield, you can punish it for free. Neutral B hits on frames 19-20. You can act afterward at frame 50. If your shield isn't broken, you have 30 frames to punish Marth. That's alot of time.

Marth's recovery being good? Don't make me laugh. He's only going 1 place. He can't stall with side B and if he can't use his double jump to get to the ledge, he's gonna double jump and then up B to the ledge. Just put a hitbox in front of the ledge and Marth will die. It's really safe to edgeguard Marth, but most people don't know the concept of covering options so that's why they suck at it.

Innovations will come? Maybe, but it's highly unlikely given how awful Marth's frame data is. I did the math several times. Marth commits too hard in neutral. He can't pressure. He can't cover options. Those a clear signs of a lack of potential. As for Marth in Melee, no one thought he was trash in the beginning. 4th on the first tier list. Where are you getting your facts from?

Falco's recovery in Melee. It's not great distance wise, but unlike Marth or Little Mac, Falco has mixups. Assuming Falco is in range to actually recover, you can't cover all of his options. If you edgehog, you cover side B, but not high up Bs or air dodge. If you stay on the stage, you can react to up B and not side B. Marth does not have these mixups.

The Ken Combo in Smash 4 is literally bad DI + the opponent doesn't react and let Marth hit them. Not reliable and it won't happen vs good players.

My final point: learn how to play high level play before calling a character good. Oh and Aiden, opinions only mean something if they are well founded: when they have facts to back them up. Opinions about Marth being good are not well founded. I haven't seen any argument with the logical depth of mine for Marth being good. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 23:28, 9 August 2015 (EDT)

I will have to agree with your point. I don't see why Marth should be in the mid tier. His nerfed neutral, approach, combos, and punish game prevent him from being a mid, high, and top tier. For instance if i'm right, he can't hit opponent's shield with his forward aerial without getting punished due to its lag. ZeRo mentioned about Marth's core problems that made him bad and why the patch buffs did not help Marth to fix his critical problems. All the patches he received, did not address his worsened approach ability, followup options, punish game, and neutral game. It's good to see that all of his aerials have slightly less lag and improvement to some of his attacks, but it's still not enough. Marth does not have better throw followups and KO setups. To me, this is why I feel that Marth is inferior to Roy in Smash 4. Not only high tiers have both a strong neutral game and a consistent punish game, they also have amazing throw followups, KO setups, and other tools that makes them a high tier characters. Luigi540 (talk) 23:43, 9 August 2015 (EDT)

First off, it's "Aidan", not "Aiden". (Not gonna get truly mad about you for this, since people do it all the time.) Secondly, you can have your opinions, and people can have theirs; facts can back it up, or not. My point is everyone's opinion matters. Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura 23:49, 9 August 2015 (EDT)

I'm just going to jump in here to say this: our "So-And-So (SSB_)" pages have a lot of opinionated mess on them both in favor of their abilities and critical of them. Rather than bickering over whose opinionated statements are more relevant, we should be focusing more on the characters' relative strengths and weaknesses, how they're played competitively by their highest-placing representatives, and the like. Furthermore, everybody here should probably try to relax and de-escalate. This is really not worth getting this worked up over. Miles (talk) 00:45, 10 August 2015 (EDT)

Before the first tier list was founded, Marth was considered to suffer from what I call the "Mario Syndrome": His moveset was too simple. On top of this, people thought he relied too heavily on rolling and C-stick spamming...until Ken. Everyone has a point, though I still have faith that innovations in Marth's meta will come like it did in Melee and like it did for Olimar and Icies in Brawl. I see where you are coming from and you are not wrong about anything (except his recovery which can actually be boosted significantly by Shield Breaker, not to mention Dophin's Slash's power and arc, now if only it did 13%), but I still feel Marth has POTENTIAL.

I would like to add: where are Yoshi's results? There are none and he is still considered solid.

Aidan, spot on. And Miles, you are also right. I might be a little biased, but I try to see both sides of the coin with strengths and weaknesses (except with Dedede and Mewtwo, who flat out have no strengths). I just felt a little alienated by the edit description. And yes, Roy is infinitely better than Marth (don't have him though). Ironic if you ask me lol.

Thank you all for paying attention to what I have to say.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.37.25.25 (talk • contribs) 9:56, August 10, 2015

I want to add a few more things: 1) The players I play against are good, but I really don't think they will be going to any internationals anytime soon. Marth has potential, it's no secret that ALMOST ANYONE in the game has some sort of potential. Lucina is useless tho. 2) Shield Breaker is far from unpunishable. But it has plenty of utility. If Ganondorf's up tilt has utility (which it does), so can Shield Breaker. It is useful for recovery, typically breaks full shields unless it's perfect shielded (perfect shielding takes perfect reflexes) and is a strong kill move. But like any KO move that does not belong to Sheik, it is very punishable and you are guaranteed to eat a NASTY punish if you whiff, it doesn't send far enough, or somehow it doesn't break a shield. I really wish Shield Breaker had Brawl shield damage. In Smash 4 physics, Brawl Shield Breaker would break anything.

Again, thank you for hearing what I have to say.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.37.25.25 (talk • contribs) 10:08, August 10, 2015

I'm back again after reading a recent change on the Marth page.

"Guess I gotta do everything myself guys."

It seems you are trying to snuff out all faith that Marth can be good, I didn't say he was necessarily good, said opinions were divided. You are acting like only your opinion exists. Marth is a low tier, but he has a candle of potential lol, you can't deny the fact that Marth is not completely useless, but then again, you are entitled to your opinion, and I am to mine.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.37.25.25 (talk • contribs) 10:16, August 10, 2015

The problem is that these opinions about Marth, including yours, are based on a faulty understanding of the game. You also have questionable sources of information. Seriously, Marth was considered amazing in early Melee, even when everyone was a scrub. Azen, the first good player, beat literally everyone via forward smash reads. Like I said, when you come up with an argument for Marth that has the logical soundness of mine, then I'll listen. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 11:41, 10 August 2015 (EDT)

I would agree with you that Marth is low tier (and Lucina is Bottom 10 in my opinion) but he isn't really bad like Mewtwo is. When it comes to the Marth (SSB4) page however, you're not giving other people who edit it a chance and quite frankly, the page is written from your opinions only. Dots (talk) The Democratic 12:22, 10 August 2015 (EDT)

Very early in the Melee metagame, Marth was seen as a character that relied too much on rolling and C-stick spamming, traits that led to a negative low-level image of him despite his high tier placement. Shortly before the third tier list (June 2003), Ken won Tournament Go 4 with Marth, introducing the uses of dash-dancing, chain throwing, and a higher focus on spacing and aerial combat, including the creation of the famous Ken Combo. Later, Ken incorporated other advanced techniques, such as wavedashing, into Marth's metagame, and showed how powerfully he could punish enemies off small mistakes and reads. Because of this, Ken is credited for largely improving Marth's metagame. Ken, and a handful of other top Marth mains such as Azen, are credited for moving Marth up to the top tier for years to come, usually around the second to fourth highest spot on the list. Marth's first drop into the high tier since then was in the eighth tier list (July 2006), where he dropped to fourth place. However, in the ninth tier list (October 2008), he again moved up to second place, before dropping to fifth place in the tenth list (September 2010), and rising to fourth in the eleventh (current) tier list as of July 2013.

From this very wiki.

And Dots, I agree with everything you said. Look at the good sides of Marth too: good power, decent recovery, decent edgeguarding, remarkable speed, and decent range. Yes, he does not quite have a dagger.

Good day to all and good night.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.37.25.25 (talk • contribs) 2:13, August 10, 2015

To Brian and Miles

You both need to stop.

Brian, stop overblowing Marth's nerfs, it is not like he is useless, and he did get buffed as the game went on, I see what you mean, but stop acting like he has no hope.

Miles, stop understating Marth's nerfs. You are being overly defensive about this character, I see where you are coming from, but he was nerfed severely and is not even high tier anymore.

I hope we can get this settled, but remember to stay neutral. You are entitled to your opinions, but this is a wiki.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.37.25.25 (talk • contribs) 4:25, August 10, 2015

Haha. Say this to me again when you reach the same level of understanding I have about the game.--64.2.3.194 16:38, 10 August 2015 (EDT)

I'm not going to say you were not wrong about the fact that Marth is arguably the most severely nerfed character in the game. However, you go as far as to say Marth has no strengths and is completely useless.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.37.25.25 (talk • contribs) 4:44, August 10, 2015

The gimmicks you perceive as strengths mean nothing to me. Whatever attractive features left in his kit are too few and far between to do anything significant. He's nothing but a scrub slayer now.--64.2.3.194 16:52, 10 August 2015 (EDT)

We'll see. I'm not counting on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.37.25.25 (talk • contribs) 5:00, August 10, 2015

I would agree with Brian on this one. Unless if Marth gets an extreme buff in his neutral and punish game in a patch, I see him nowhere as viable compared to Melee and Brawl; although that being said, I wouldn't say he's complete shit like Lucina is. Dots (talk) The Medic 17:01, 10 August 2015 (EDT)

Dots, you are very late to what I said. He is nowhere near what he used to be and that is a fact. Another fact is, he actually has a neutral and punish game, unlike Lucina, Dedede, Mewtwo, Robin, and 0% Lucario.

I'm not saying that he has a nonexistent neutral and punish game, its just that it is considerably weaker, if not outright bad, than the previous two games. Dots (talk) The Light 17:21, 10 August 2015 (EDT)

Not only Marth needs buffs in his neutral and punish game, he also needs to have an improved throw follow ups and combo ability (like linking forward aerial to each other efficiently, have forward aerial strings, and less base and growth of its knockback on his throws, so he can follow up better and have better KO setups). Only true follow ups so far I found is his forward throw to Crescent Slash (custom move), although I see some top players are against custom moves for competitive play after EVO. Otherwise, I don't see how viable he will be and is not gonna be too bright. Luigi540 (talk) 17:29, 10 August 2015 (EDT)

Taking away facts.

I've seen you confronted with changes to characters, notably changes to Marth and Fox, but tell whomever confronted you with them to not list them because they are insignificant, such as maybe a very slightly faster dash speed. You do realize we list all changes we find, right? There is no "leaving out insignificant facts". Ganonmew (talk) 08:40, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

Who said that? Toomai? If so, ok. If Miles, he doesn't actually know anything about this game. I'd honestly wouldn't take his suggestions seriously.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 23:47, 20 August 2015 (EDT)

I believe it's more of a general consensus. Also, SW:YAV. Nyargleblargle (Talk) 06:26, 21 August 2015 (EDT)

I don't quite recall who you said it to or what it was..

Also, you need to stop personally attacking people in edit summaries. I get that they don't know too much about the game and you are frustrated with them, but there's no reason to have an edit summary like those. Not to mention how much you ignore people who try and tell you this,

On that topic, I seriously laughed at your previous section with OT. He tried to point out your flawed logic in saying he is "uninformed" and you get your facts from "objective sources" when you were adamant to the end that one of the Top 5 non-tethers was "horrible", which if you listened to the entire sentence, would've stopped you dead in your tracks and think about your bias against all versions of Marth. But instead, you went and took offense to the first thing he said because you just HAD to prove the guy wrong, didn't you?

TL;DR 1) I don't know much about what you said to who or what it was. 2) I look up to you, but you're being a malicious hypocrite. Ganonmew (talk) 09:15, 21 August 2015 (EDT)

One more thing, if Shield Breaker does not break your shield, it is actually not always (if ever) a free punish. The universal decrease in traction (and still no wavedashing) makes it so characters get pushed back a lot if attacks hit their shield. The only characters that actually stand a chance to punish Shield Breaker if it doen't break a shield are Little Mac and Rosalina. No, other characters with high traction will not punish because they are too slow or their attacks are too laggy (if not both). So, think about the mechanics of Smash 4 before you say something.

Also, if you hate "Trash" 4, why do you bother attacking its players? Ganonmew (talk) 09:26, 21 August 2015 (EDT)

Well that's if it's not powershielded. You don't slide if an attack is powershielded. Serpent King (talk) 10:19, 21 August 2015 (EDT)

@SK

1) You have 1-2 frames to powershield. You won't do that under normal circumstances unless you outright expect SB to come out.

2) doPon't makes no sense. Explain please, Ganonmew (talk) 10:39, 21 August 2015 (EDT)

I fail to see where I'm being hypocritical. I have never contradicted my arguments and made sure mine lack logical fallacies. My opinions of Marth are well founded in frame data research and a good deal of experience. Who are you to say all of that is flawed? You make statements based on nothing. Have you even seem the frame disadvantage of neutral B? It hits on frames 19 and 20 and then you are actionable on frame 50. That means if it doesn't break your shield or misses, you have to eat 30 frames of recovery where you can't move. 30 frames is a ton of time for your opponent to do whatever they want. Even if they shield the move, it only does 6ish frames of shield stun and I believe it takes 4 frames to release the shield in Smash 4 (someone verify this for me). 20 frames is also a ton of time to do whatever you want. You most certainly can punish a missed neutral B. If you can't, you probably suck and your reaction time is too slow.

Also both of you are wrong. The window for powershielding a physical attack is 4 frames (the first 2 frames reflect projectiles in Melee). --64.2.3.194 15:58, 21 August 2015 (EDT)

Yea, my reaction time is even worse than OT's, but try punishing it with someone like Yoshi or Charizard. And, you said that Brawl Marth's grab range is abysmal, :but it remained of of the Top 5 longest non-tethers.

BTW I actually am an ok player. You can play me if you want. Ganonmew (talk) 16:29, 21 August 2015 (EDT)

Ganonmew: If you think that no other characters with high traction will not punish, you are wrong. Low traction characters have hard time punish out of shield. Look at Luigi, if you use attack and hit Luigi's shield, he will slide back further and he will have hard time to punish, unless he powersheids. Some characters have good out of shield options. Don't think about hitting his Shield Breaker against great Zero Suit Samus player either. She has the best punisher in the game. Make random or even tiny mistakes, you will get hit harder with her moves and get KO'd earlier (for instance you use that move and it was shielded (not broken) or powershielded and you are at 20% and ZSS is at 80%, you will get down thrown, uair, uair, up B and get KOd), if she does it right. If she has rage, you will get KO'd earlier as well. Luigi540 (talk) 16:54, 21 August 2015 (EDT)

I thought ZSS has low traction. The reason I said that Shield Breaker is hard to punish is because only characters with high traction can punish things like that (unless you're Sheik or Samus, who can simply roll to punish despite their low traction), only the characters with high traction are ultimately too slow, laggy, weak, or all of the above, to punish well.

Also, 4 frames. That is shorter than the startup of Falco's pre-Smash 4 dair. I wish you good luck on powershielding on a consistent basis when you are not Mew2King. Ganonmew (talk) 19:41, 28 August 2015 (EDT)

I'd like to bring your attention...

...to this. Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura 21:46, 21 August 2015 (EDT)