User talk:Semicolon/Requests for Adminship Proposal: Difference between revisions

User talk:Semicolon/Requests for Adminship Proposal (edit)

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 :::In closing, it seems we are doomed to disagree. With the understanding that we are likely not to resolve, I believe it is up to the community to voice their opinions on this matter. You may surely offer further rebuttal, but I am resigned to accept only suggestions, amendments, improvements to this policy and let its acceptance be the only matter thereafter with which I concern myself. Seeing as you are diametrically opposed to it and prefer to maintain the present policy, I do not expect you to offer amendment but rather favor its scrapping.  This is fine; if you have further amendments that do not strike at its core premises I would be pleased to entertain them. [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 15:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::*"I would like to note that the most vocal critics of this policy are people from different wikias whose backgrounds with their proposed policies are not analogous to the position of this wikia. Any comparison drawn is a fallacy and ipso facto invalid." ...what? Yes, we're all from a different wiki, and I don't mean to sound narcissistic but.. us vocal critics (DE, Auron, LoaT and Mendel in particular, they're all universally more intelligent than myself) know our stuff. How are policies that apply our wiki not analogous to your own? If you're telling me things like NPA, YAV, AGF etc. aren't needed here than I might as well just stop trying; if that were the case, then this site is beyond any hope I can try to offer. Denying any comparison's validity on the basis of SmashWiki isn't GuildWiki is just fallacious in and of itself.
+::::*"Because in a universe of anonymity, the only justice is equality. People don’t have to answer for their reasoning or their actions. People will think how they will." This isn't a universe of anonymity, we all know each other and what each other are like to an extent. People should have to explain their reasoning is certain cases- such as these. Following your reasoning, I could oppose User:ABC's sysoption with the reasoning of "I don't like his username" (and under this policy I wouldn't even have to write why- I could even support/oppose whoever I wanted for the lulz and nobody could prove or DQ me at all) and it would count for just as much as if I could provide dozens of links on evidence why User:ABC wouldn't make a good sysop.
+::::*"Internet arguments/discussions do not accomplish anything." So we might as well just be arguing about whether I should buy a flowered tablecloth or a blue one? Kk, I'll let you know what I decide tomorrow. They only accomplish nothing if you refuse to listen to them. Even if nothing changes, you'll at least understand the opposing side, and if you do that, then the argument was worth it.
+::::*"The other problem is who can be the judge?" I wish I could say me, but it'll never happen, so I can't. DE, Auron, LoaT and Mendel are equally valid and also equally unlikely to be promoted. At the moment, I have chosen to support Charitwo.
+::::*"Who has the right to determine what critique is valid or what critique is invalid, or what support is useful and what is not? Even under the present system, five poorly reasoned supports outweigh a single well reasoned critique. This system does not discourage explanations. It discourages the interpretation of critiques as grounds for nomination by any sysop because that gives them too much power. Say there is a controversy over the quality of the explanation and reasoning, and the community desires a candidate that the sysops don’t like? They can merely interpret the comments and reasoning differently and refuse the conferment of powers." Valid point, but if you have a community-supported bureaucrat who you can trust to make the right decision (after all "if you can’t trust your sysops then you have a bigger problem then simply the nomination process" applies to bureaucrats too) then you can trust their judgment.
+::::*" (a) that would be a conflict of interest (b) my edit count is too low ( c) I don’t have the time to spend on this wikia (d) I’m not particularly popular among users" A is valid; B isn't very relevant, edit count doesn't prove anything and it also suggests adminship is a reward for editing (I can see the spam crews now); C is a matter of your own judgment, you seem active enough to me; D isn't a requirement (if unpopularity were cause for demotion Auron would have been exiled ages ago), though it might be a hinderance if you implement a vote count. But if you trusted you bureaucrats to judge whether or not you'd make a good sysop, you wouldn't have a problem with how unpopular you are.
+::::*"I think you lack trust of both the sysops and the community; your comments betray this. You mistrust the admins [...]" I do not ''inherently'' lack trust in them, their actions have proven to me that I can't trust them. DE hit the nail on the head with his comment on the community portal; I wish you had seen the IRC conversations from yesterday. If I can pique the interest of 1) A bureaucrat on gwiki, gww, and pvx (the 3 guildwars wikis), 2) a bureaucrat on pvx, 3&4) two non-sysopped users but who are both very intelligent anyway with ''one sentence'' about ''one admin'' and get them to come investigate an entire community (I didn't even ask them to, they were interested enough on their own), there's a dire problem. And the conclusion #1 came to? "If I ever have even the slightest doubt about my own course of action, I should go read their talk pages again." That shouldn't be someone's reaction to any wiki. Ever.
+::::*"friends stick with friends." They can, and they will. This I have no doubts about. This can and will overrule "that they [the community] would let a candidate become a sysop even if they know they aren’t good." This isn't unique to SmashWiki, it happens on GuildWiki all the time- but we don't sysop them because of a vote count. I said "that that doesn’t disqualify their vote"- '''''by default'''''. If the only reason they think User:ABC should be a sysop is because ABC is their friend, then their vote is most certainly not contributing constructively to whether or not ABC should be a sysop. Votes such as these shouldn't be valued for the same reason you wouldn't ask Clarinet Hawk to back you as a sysop; it's a conflict of interest.
+::::*"And don’t suggest a poll" I would oppose a poll with my dying breath if I had to, even more than I am opposing this vote count now. :P   That was merely an example for my argument.
+::::*"I resent your insinuation that we are not good judges of character." Where did I say this? Regardless of whether or not it is true, I don't recall implying such a thing. If that were truly the case with every single user here, I can assure you I would not have supported Charitwo's b'crat nomination, nor would I be contributing here. If I though every user here was a failure as you have suggested I do, I would not contribute here; it wouldn't be worth the time.
+::::*"I deeply resent your distrust of our community." I resent its necessity. I do not enjoy distrusting people; it's far easier to [[User:Shadowcrest/policy/AGF|assume good faith]]. However, tis is not possible when you have mountains of opposing evidenece shoved in your face.
+::::*"I’ve already explained that the right to distinguish the validity of the comments puts too much power in the hands of the sysops. It is not that I distrust them, however; it is merely that the right to nominate a sysop comes from the community, not the admins." How does this not imply distrust in the bureaucrat's judgment? That's what the bureaucrats are there for: to promote candidates deserving of sysophood. The community is free to ''nominate'' the cndidates, as you say, but they do not in any way hold the right to promote them. If you disagree, I'd like to point out that's why not every user has bureaucrat rights.
+::::*"There is a provision for poverty of input before the closing of the nomination, so your criticism is unjustified if it is based on [...] lack of thought." It says only the sysops have the ability to extend the nomination; normal users should have the ability to extend the nomination somehow, likely through a sysop (since no other viable method presents itself to me atm.)
+::::*"I admit the system is flawed, but I am willing to trust the community and the sysops to do the best for themselves and for the wiki." Your method imposes restrictions and red tape on the bureaucrats (in addition to obligating them to promote if certain circumstances are met); mine gives them the ability to use their own discretion as to whether or not a candidate would make a good sysop.
+::::*"But nominations, themselves as considerations of candidates, do not close. " Thank you for clarifying that; I had thought you meant individual nominations would never close. As I am opposed to nominations as a whole being closed at all, I would support this line.
+{{clr}}
+::::In closing, yes, it does unfortunately seem we must agree to disagree. You are, of course, welcome to keep refuting any of my comments/questions/criticisms etc., as knowledge can't be a bad thing. I will see if I have anything to add to this sometime, as writing this walloftext has been quite the endeavor, and I am now quite exhausted. This took two hours to write :( <br>
+::::I do resent the view that the policies I'm trying to implement are skewed by my distrust of the community, however. If the community as a whole can't see just how much those policies (NPA, AGF, YAV in particular) are worth to this wiki, then like I said before, there's nothing left for me to do. I'm doing my best; if I get shot down, I have nothing left to offer. <br>
+::::I hope you realize that I'm not trying to demolish the wiki, I'm trying to help it the best I can. I'm sorry if I come off that way, but walls of cold logic are the only way I can explain.  --[[User:Shadowcrest|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest</font>]] 18:33, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
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