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== A possible way to treat both the ellipsis and the special stages symbol equally ==
== A possible way to treat both the ellipsis and the special stages symbol equally ==


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:::You know, maybe it's better to leave the minor universes without a symbol. That way, on the sortable wikitables when you sort them by universe, the universes would be completely alphabetical instead of having all the minor universes grouped with the S's. And in the infoboxes, the symbols are just taking up space in the caption field and I think some characters can do without a symbol. It does match how Assist Trophy showcase presentations, the Wii U Trophy Gallery, and most of the spirits mode has no symbol when there should be, and the infoboxes for minor universes lack a symbol anyway. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 19:54, February 21, 2020 (EST)
:::You know, maybe it's better to leave the minor universes without a symbol. That way, on the sortable wikitables when you sort them by universe, the universes would be completely alphabetical instead of having all the minor universes grouped with the S's. And in the infoboxes, the symbols are just taking up space in the caption field and I think some characters can do without a symbol. It does match how Assist Trophy showcase presentations, the Wii U Trophy Gallery, and most of the spirits mode has no symbol when there should be, and the infoboxes for minor universes lack a symbol anyway. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 19:54, February 21, 2020 (EST)
==Time to reach a decision once and for all:Pros and Cons of every possible symbol==
I've been reading this talk page a lot recently, and I know there was a lot of dissent after the initial debate was forced closed, to the point where several users would act outside of the decision to either acknowledge the current placeholder as unofficial on the series symbol page or by changing the symbols in the infoboxes. While yes, this has been a bloated discussion, the current decision has failed to satisfy multiple users, which makes reopening this valid. I kind of regret opening this can of worms, but thinking back on it, the current placeholder had multiple egregious readability issues, and the most important thing for a wiki is readability. It's my fault that this discussion reopened, so it's my job to analyze everything if I really want a change, and my responsibility that an agreed decision is met. I'm neutral to any of the options listed below, as they all have pros and cons, but something should change.
Before I give pros and cons to every possible option I can think of, I want to address two users who were disrespectful of the spirit of the debate. I do not mean these as personal attacks; I think both of you had valid points. But your methods have actively harmed what oherwise should have been a calm discussion.
*SeanWheeler constantly insisted on changing it to the ellipsis, to the point where he tried to drag in a blocked user to this discussion. Toomai constantly claimed that no new arguments were being brought to the table, when in reality, there were some legitimately new arguments brought in by Rdrfc and Capstalker. SeanWheeler, while I agree with many of your arguments, I suggest you fix your methods and wording; if you and Lou Cena didn't try to to put words in other peoples' mouths, this might have initially succeeded. Even in the initial debate, you claimed that every argument was debunked, when in reality you were only focusing on Toomai's and Miles' arguments. There were far more than 3-4 users who did not seem completely satisfied, but you and a few other pro-change people dragged this subject to multiple talk pages, causing everyone else pro-change to be drowned out by comparison.
*Toomai, I would suggest reading each user's counterpoint carefully; while you did counter SeanWheeler's arguments, you did not do so with Rdrfc and Captstalker, who had new arguments. I would not be surprised if you glossed over them because you were focused on tackling SeanWheeler. You said being loud does not make you correct, but if I'm being honest, being too quiet about it is almost as bad. I understand that you care for the readability of the wiki, but by doing so you isolated this wiki's terminology with those of the general fanbase. Sure, 3-4 users were primarily complaining, but you have to think of what people think outside of the wiki too.
What I will be doing below is giving a summary of every possible option, and the pros and cons of each one. I know that these are mainly repeats of what has been said before, but that's the only way I can properly describe the pros and cons of each symbol/lack thereof.
*1. The Melee Battlefield symbol: This is already being used, and several admins did not think there had to be any change. However, people who don't know this symbol's usage would be confused on if it real ([[User talk:SuperSmashTurtles#Iori Yagami and Ryo Sakazaki symbols|like I did initially]]), while those who do know wonder why this is being used if the context does not fit. It is barely noticeable in game, though it is on a competitively legal stage on the most popular game in the franchise spectator-wise.  The low visibility does let it be reasonably claimed to be an "everything else" symbol, but the general abstractness of it means that it is difficult to comprehend this as "everything else". Also, as Rdrfc best put it, a wiki should not ignore '''official terminology that has been adopted by the entire community just because a few admins of the wiki think the terms they made up sound better and/or are more descriptive'''.  That goes directly against SW:UNOFFICIAL. I'll go over the fact that the official symbol is only in Ultimate, but the current placeholder is only in Melee, which logically makes applying it to any piece of minor series content that debuted after Melee
*2. The official symbol: While preferably, we should use the official symbol, Smashwiki is not official. However, it is not unknown that this is the official symbol; youtube OST rips use this symbol, and particularly popular ones like Megalovania and Floral Fury would make this knowledge commonplace. Additionally, because of how small this symbol is, it can potentially look like misplaced text on a small computer or a phone on desktop mode. An ellipsis is also usually an icon for a menu extension, though it should be noted that those tend to be in the corners of infoboxes instead of in the center. As Capstalker best put it, '''clicking on it would take them to the file page instead of a menu, which would be a dead giveaway of its purpose, and it is unlikely that a reader will make the same mistake twice'''. There is the fact that this is exclusive to Ultimate. The wiki switched Snake's symbol when it changed, and nearly every minor series content page is represented in Ultimate, so there would be no reason not to backpedal when we have done so already. However, there are a few pieces of minor series content that are not in Ultimate, which does make backpedaling in this case questionable.
*3. The Wii U Custom Stages symbol: Unlike the Battlefield symbol, which is in the infobox of [[Battlefield (SSBM)]], this symbol is not currently used in any infobox. While it is also unofficial, custom stages can be made into anything, including content of minor series. However. This shares the same problems that Rdrfc mentioned earlier; we shouldn't make up meaning just because wiki users think it's more descriptive when it has jot been accepted by the rest of the community. Using either this or the Battlefield symbol would isolate this wiki from the rest of the community.
*4. No symbol at all: Not having a symbol in the infobox would be the most neutral solution. It doesn't have the readability issues of the official symbol, the abstractness of the current placeholder, and it wouldn't be falsely adopting a term that has been accepted by the rest of the community. Another pro of this is that the official symbol is not used everywhere; until Ultimate, there was no official symbol, and even the spirit lists in Ultimate do not use one, just the tram setup. However, doing this would also make the formatting of infoboxes of minor series content inconsistent with other pages. It could also lead into the problem of a new reader thinking something is supposed to go there, when there really isn't supposed to.
*5. Blank symbol: This has the exact same pros as option 4, but there are different cons. While none of the cons of option 4 apply to option 5, having a blank image would cause unnecessary space between the image and the rest of the infobox. If it is used in table lists like the DLC pages, this causes the text to be off-centered in an ugly fashion. Another con of this is that
I don't want this to be a vote, nor do I want this to be a 3 part debate like the one on the archive. Please, '''read everything carefully, and do not type ''anything'' until you have read everything'''. I would suggest looking at the sections above, the archive, and [[Talk:Series symbol]] if something is still missing. Thank you for reading. Have a nice day everybody! [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 04:58, February 22, 2020 (EST)
:So I read your comment and you already explained the pros and cons of each option, so I'll just give my opinion on this: Battlefield > Custom stages > no symbol > ellipses > blank symbol. Here are my pros and cons for each option:
::1. Battlefield: has been used for a long time and has been set as the other series placeholder. It fits with the common design of symbols and has been used in very minor contexts, and so I believe it somewhat does its job of representing the other series, albiet still kinda poorly. However, because it is ''also'' used on Battlefield (SSBM)'s page, it can confuse readers thinking it was placed on Battlefield by mistake, or readers will question why we're using a symbol used for a Smash-original stage to represent the other series.
::2. ellipses: The "official" symbol. In Ultimate it's used to represent minor universes for sound test and spirits, do that's the only reason I can give to use it. However, the appearence of the symbol is out of place compared to other symbols and its meaning is easily misinterpreted: Because of its small size (which is another issue) and literally being ellipses, it looks like misplaced text or a menu extension button. Also I'd like to mention that saying the meaning of Battlefield's symbol being unclear doesn't necessarily give a reason to use the ellipses, rather to not use Battlefield. Even though Battlefield doesn't do the best job at representing minor universes, the ellipses does worse.
::3. Wii U custom stages: The appearence looks like something that can be used to represent miscellaneous universes. However the context is incorrect: Because it's the symbol used for custom stages in {{forwiiu}}, readers will think it was placed on the page by mistake because it was intended to be used for custom stages.
::4. No symbol: I initially intended it to be as a "last resort", however there is some validity fir doing this: having no symbol will get the idea that because there is nothing there it represents minor universes. However like it was mentioned before, it will make the format with the infoboxes inconsistant and make readers think something is supposed to go there, but in reality there isn't.
::5. Blank image: Same as 4 but with another flaw: the extra space due to the blank image will cause a gap in the infoboxes that can make the con with 4 more obvious. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="font-family: Algerian">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="green">Omegα</font>]][[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="red">Toαd</font><font color="blue">64</font>]]'''</span> 01:27, February 26, 2020 (EST)
:::For me, it would be Ellipsis > No Symbol > Blank Symbol > Custom Stages > Battlefield. Opinions about how the ellipsis looks are very subjective. And I don't think it's that out of place with Metal Gear's exclamation point, Final Fantasy's "FF" or Mega Man's generic gear. Has anyone new actually confused a series symbol for a drop-down menu? And the ellipsis was used for so many series with primary spirits and music. But if we really can't use the ellipsis, my second favored option would be to just have no symbol there. Since the ellipsis only existed in Ultimate and even then you'd only see it when viewing your party in Adventure Mode, and everywhere else there's an absence of a symbol for Other series, maybe we could match the game that way. Maybe we don't need a placeholder symbol taking up an infobox.  The blank image? A blank image would be useless. And we wouldn't be able to tell if it's even there unless we go to edit mode. And if it's placed in an infobox, that would be a lot of empty space. But it's better than misusing the Custom Stages symbol or Battlefield. Custom Stages is custom stages. But at least we don't have a page that used the Custom Stages symbol in an infobox. In fact I get why it was suggested because that symbol isn't really used anywhere outside the Series symbol page. The Battlefield symbol was used as our miscellaneous symbol for almost a decade but I never could agree with the usage of a Smash original stage's symbol for the other series. Especially as other users pointed out how it confuses readers about Battlefield and how the point about the ellipsis being Ultimate exclusive just wouldn't hold up with a Melee exclusive stage's symbol. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 18:06, February 26, 2020 (EST)
::::For the record, I don't care what happens, as long as something changes. They're all bad options, but the worst cons just so happen to be on what is currently being used (even after reading this discussion; 80% of the anti-change arguments were to not use the official one, and the other 20% either apply to the current symbol as well or are covered by the other options). I just don't want others to make the same mistake I did. I thought it was fake at first, and knowing its actual usage, it makes even less sense. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 22:55, February 28, 2020 (EST)
:::As the original proponent of dropping placeholder symbols, I have realized that while it works perfectly fine in infoboxes, this could possibly cause issues in lists used on pages like [[List of composers]]. Aside from that, since I have already given my opinion about why we should follow the rest of the community in adopting official icons, I want to address OmegaToad64's concerns about readability of the ellipsis. Stylistically, series symbols are all over the place, and there are also some fairly generic ones like Mega Man's cog which vaguely looks like a settings icon; the only trait that they objectively have in common (ellipsis included) is being gray vector images. Because the ellipsis are also a gray vector icon like every other symbol used on this wiki, it is extremely unlikely, in my opinion, that they could be mistaken for text (which would be black and much smaller) or for a drop down menu (those usually are in the top right corner). I agree that they are a bit ugly and less than ideal, however beggars can't really be choosers. The Battlefield and Custom stages icons are equally bad options in my opinion, the only upside of the Custom Stages icon is that it is currently not used anywhere in the wiki. --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 07:08, February 29, 2020 (EST)

Latest revision as of 07:15, March 2, 2020

The icon for archives. This page is an archive. Do not edit the contents of this page. Direct any additional comments to the current talk page.

A possible way to treat both the ellipsis and the special stages symbol equally

I noticed that Toomai said that he was not entirely happy with the decision that only Ultimate’s general music and spirits pages for minor universes received the ellipsis. I agree, mostly because it makes no sense that a page represented by an ellipsis would link to pages with the special stages symbol. I do have a compromise that hopefully isn’t parroting previous points. Serpent King, Aidan, and Miles, please read this before automatically assuming that I’m a relentless lunatic.

  • If the series of either the mii costume, item, or AT has either music or a spirit that is in the “other” category, then their page will be given the ellipsis.
    • Addtionally, even if the mii costume or item is completely unrepresented in Ultimate, if another character or item from the same series is still in Ultimate as a spirit, or music from their series is listed under “other” in Ultimate, they will also be given the ellipsis by extension. This refers specifically to the Virtua Fighter and Monster Hunter costumes.
  • If the item or mii costume (all past AT’s are at least spirits already) are completely absent in Ultimate, or their respective series is not represented in any way, shape or form, they will continue using the special stages symbol. For example, the Rareware items will continue using the special stages symbol.
  • Minor namco universes are a bit goofy. With the exception of Tekken, all of them have music represented by PAC-MAN instead of “others”. On the other hand, both the Boss galaga and Special Flag are listed under “others” for spirits. As only Galaga has a full song instead of a medley considered to be a PAC-MAN song, Boss Galaga receives the PAC-MAN symbol. The Special Flag will be given an ellipsis, due to only having a medley represented with music. Heihachi and Gil are part of Pac-Man’a roulette taunt, so I honestly don’t knoe where to put them. However, Lloyd is completely unrepresented in Ultimate, and thus will stay using the special stages symbol.

So, the following pages will still 100% use the special stages symbol: Battlefield (SSBM), Cloaking Device, and Lloyd Irving. Heihachi and Gil may still use the special stages symbol, but they could also use the ellipsis if the minor cameo is considered enough to give it to them.

Is this good? No discussion is not closed if people aren’t satisfied. Lou Cena (talk) 11:57, 13 February 2019 (EST)

Well, if we won't let this go because we're seeing too many flaws in overusing the Battlefield logo and now Toomai is having doubts about his decision, I think we should be using the ellipsis. I like how your compromise would make most of the minor universes get the ellipsis. The special stages symbol for the few others: not so much. But if it leads to stuff using the correct symbol, and a later dispute would get rid of the SpecialStages symbol from pages that are not referencing Melee's Battlefield, then it's fine with me. SeanWheeler (talk) 13:37, 13 February 2019 (EST)

The next person to add another comment to this closed discussion is being blocked for disruption. Toomai Glittershine   The Riotous 19:26, 13 February 2019 (EST)

So I came in late on this. Can I get a summary on what happened here? I've gathered the discussion has been forced closed, but over a month has passed and I was kind of wondering why we weren't switching the symbol myself, though I was unaware that this had all gone down.  VinLAURiA (talk) 06:19, March 20, 2019 (EDT)

Summary: Some people wanted to change the "default use everywhere" symbol to SSBU's three-dots icon. Other people argued that such icon is inappropriate. The discussion grew very large, primarily (but not completely) divided with newer users on the "change" side and experienced users on the "stay" side. {In my opinion, the "change" side rehashed their few arguments repeatedly, while the "stay" side did a better job at countering them and bringing in new ones.} The staff team decided that the discussion had become unproductive and closed it. Toomai Glittershine   Da Bomb 06:46, March 20, 2019 (EDT)
I’ve actually had some counterpoints to several of the points that were made on the archive for a good month now (to the point where I changed the template “other” to “specialstages” on several pre-ultimate related content, such as Heihachi and Pooka), though I didn’t want to bring it up due to not wanting to cause another disruption. Additionally, with the influx of new users in this (Sniffoy of the mainspace discussion and Vin on this page), it may be a good time to reopen discussion on a topic that many were unsatisfied about. To solve the repetition of the same argument, all of the main arguements of the prior discussion should be stated on the top of the page, followed by a suggestion to not use these again. Lou Cena (talk) 00:48, March 28, 2019 (EDT)
Please don't try to run any discussions if you still think things like "arguements of the prior discussion should be stated on the top of the page, followed by a suggestion to not use these again" are an okay thing to do. Toomai Glittershine   The Free 06:51, March 28, 2019 (EDT)
Alright, I won’t add that then. If you really don’t trust me, I’ll stay out of this one for the most part, and mainly leave it up to another group of users if they feel like it should be changed. While I’m aware that I was disruptive and am likely not trusted around this subject, I do think that the users who joined in on the discussion after it was declared closed (such as VinLAURiA) should probably be given a chance to debate on this. Lou Cena (talk) 19:17, March 28, 2019 (EDT)
It is difficult to think of new points that haven't been stated before, and some people might not have time to read the whole archived discussion, so I think if people want to add to previous points, I think they should. But the anti-ellipsis side was worried about formatting issues (which are nonexistent because of the way we use symbols), didn't think the three dots looked like a symbol (in their opinion), and didn't want to use the ellipsis for pre-Ultimate content because it wasn't used back then (despite forcing character articles that officially had the ellipsis in Spirit Mode to use the symbol exclusive to one Melee original stage). And I think being officially used for minor universes is the most legitimate reason. Smash Wiki may not be official, but we still prefer to use official symbols. And with only four admins wanting to keep the special stages symbol while everyone else wanting to change to the ellipsis, the consensus should have been the ellipsis. SW:ADMIN says that admins should not settle a dispute to his preference and that they are only as valuable as the other users in a discussion. But anyway, Lou can you state all your new points? SeanWheeler (talk) 19:37, April 2, 2019 (EDT)
We are not opening this up again for discussion right now. SugarCookie 420 19:46, April 2, 2019 (EDT)

Change the placeholder to Wii U Custom Stages

Judging by this talk page, its archive, and the series symbol talk page that SuperSmashTurtles showed me (Thanks for answering my confusion, by the way), I can tell that topics of this caliber were a touchy topic a year ago. However, I want to be abundantly clear: I do not wish to switch to the official ellipsis symbol. After testing the show preview function with the official symbol on desktop mode with my phone, I can't see it when compared to the current one. Also, like the admins said from the other thread, it doesn't fit with the other symbols, and it's used as sparingly as possible. However, I do feel that the current placeholder is the wrong choice, especially when others have expressed similar dissatisfaction long after this discussion was closed.

  is the next best replacement without fabricating a question mark symbol (a la Metal Gear's exclamation point) in my opinion. My two biggest gripes with the Melee Battlefield symbol are solved if this becomes the new placeholder.

1.The Melee Battlefield symbol is almost completely indescribable. I don't know what the hell I'm looking at whenever I see it. While the Wii U Custom Stages symbol is also difficult to describe in a simple manner, I can at least say that it's a triangle, a circle, and a square.
2.Look at Battlefield (SSBM). Now look at Akira Yuki's page. They use the exact same symbol, even though one is directly related to the Smash series itself while the other is in a group of minor characters. The inconsistency is very jarring. While yes, the Wii U custom stages symbol is also not an official "other" symbol, it isn't used on any other page except this one

Additionally, the main arguments against using the official symbol do not apply to the Wii U Custom Stages symbol, as it does fit in with the other symbols. 72.203.118.154 00:44, January 13, 2020 (EST)

I don't think so. That custom stages symbol was never used for minor universes either. And the admins insist we use the Battlefield symbol even though the ellipsis makes more sense, was used for minor universes in the game, and had more people supporting it in that discussion. SeanWheeler (talk) 16:35, February 2, 2020 (EST)
It's pretty clear that they won't budge on their opinion on the official one (which does look a little too small on desktop mode on my phone), so I don't want to suggest that. My issue with the current placeholder isn't that it's unofficial, it's that it's used elsewhere. The replacement I'm suggesting is only used on the list of series symbols, while the current placeholder is in the infobox of Battlefield (SSBM), which would cause confusion as to why a smash stage and unaffiliated assist trophies both have the same icon in their infoboxes. I already had that confusion, and I want to prevent that. 72.203.118.154 01:49, February 3, 2020 (EST)

Isn't this symbol also "used elsewhere"? Maybe not on any character or stage page, but certainly the list of series symbols, and it's a lot more prominent in-game than the SSBM Battlefield one is. Part of why the Special Stages symbol was originally picked was because it was so subtle in-game that being "used elsewhere" on-wiki was a lesser concern. Toomai Glittershine   The Different 06:43, February 3, 2020 (EST)

When I said that the current placeholder was used elsewhere, I was actually referring to this wiki. Looking at the infoboxes of Battlefield (SSBM) and Isaac, somebody may be confused and think that the symbol is on Battlefield (SSBM) by mistake because it's used on unaffiliated assist trophies, and vice versa. However, you do bring up a good point about the subtleness of the Melee Battlefield symbol in comparison to the Wii U Custom Stages one, so perhaps the random character icon from Brawl would be a better placeholder? While yes, it technically isn't a symbol, the translucent gray texture of the question mark lets it pass off as one. Additionally, one of my other issues with the current placeholder is I don't know what the hell I'm looking at. Replacing it with a recognizable question mark would remove any sort of confusion on what the placeholder is supposed to be or represent, even more so than the original suggestion. 72.203.118.154 16:16, February 3, 2020 (EST)
Could we please just use the ellipsis? That has been officially used in Ultimate for the miscellaneous series. We shouldn't need a placeholder when the game gives us something. SeanWheeler (talk) 01:39, February 16, 2020 (EST)
So I see this discussion hasn't ended altogether. If you want my honest opinion, I don't think any of the symbols used to represent "other" series make sense to use, however the one I lean to the most is to keep the Battlefield symbol. The custom stage was never used to represent anything else besides custom stages so that's my take on that. Here's my problem with the ellipses:
1. The ellipses do not fit with the style of series symbols un any shape or form, and looks really out of place as a result.
2. It's too small.
3. The context it's trying to be used for is incorrect: Ultimate only uses it for the sound test and miscellaneous spirits rather than representing the "other" series as a whole.
4. The only reason people are supporting it is because it's "official", however SmashWiki is not official.
The reason I'm leaning towards the Battlefield symbol is because it still fits with the style of series symbols while still being used so subtly that it wouldn't cause a problem when used for the "other" series. My only issue with Battlefield's is because it's also used to represent Battlefield (SSBM) and so can get mixed-up with the "other" series.   OmegαToαd64 02:52, February 16, 2020 (EST)
EDIT:Toomai also mentioned another problem: The ellipses look like a "read more" button, and when clicked on they'll think it'll open another menu, but instead it'll just take them to the file page. So I don't see how the ellipses will not be questioned in the same way as the Battlefield symbol.
You've misunderstood. The reason why people think the ellipsis is better is not that it is official, it's because the meaning of the battlefield symbol is not clear, and that's why people always question the symbol, but the ellipsis can accurately express the meaning of "other".
If you don't think official symbols should be used in this regard, why use the battlefield symbol? An original symbol can be more meaningful than the battlefield symbol, and the battlefield symbol is no more official than the former.Capstalker (talk) 04:29, February 16, 2020 (EST)
We have unofficial symbols for ARMS, Golden Sun, Nintendo, Starfy, Tetris and Wars but only use them for interwiki links. Maybe they should be used more? SeanWheeler (talk) 10:17, February 16, 2020 (EST)
That is a hard no. I do not think we have the right to invent series symbols and present them as equal to the official ones. And it is in this that I personally think using the SSBM Battlefield symbol is clever: because it is official, but only in an extremely minor context that we can reasonably claim fits as the "everything else" symbol. Toomai Glittershine   The Frivolous 10:45, February 16, 2020 (EST)
But Battlefield is not an "Other series" stage. It was an original Smash Bros. stage that happened to have a unique symbol. SeanWheeler (talk) 12:27, February 16, 2020 (EST)

Just going to put this here: The staff has already made it clear that the Battlefield symbol stays (and even I agree with their reasonings) so continueing to propose to change it will get you nowhere.   OmegαToαd64 18:12, February 16, 2020 (EST)

How about using no placeholder symbol at all? Smash itself has no problems with doing that, for example in the Spirits inventory. I see it as a much better alternative than using symbols for completely different contexts than their original one, and it won't have the supposed ambiguity problems of the closest to official "miscellaneous" symbol that we have. Rdrfc (talk) 06:33, February 17, 2020 (EST)

Uh no. Having no symbol at all would look even more out of place. I hope that wasn't a joke comment, even though that was my first impression   OmegαToαd64 07:46, February 17, 2020 (EST)
Not a joke comment, I am dead serious here. I wanted to argue in favor of the ellipsis (and I will if I am allowed to), but I do believe that having no placeholder is a good enough alternative (possibly better in some respects), and it fits with what the game itself does. While not having a symbol on the templates of minor characters might look a bit weird the first days, it doesn't take a lot of brainpower, if any at all, to infer that they don't have a symbol because their series weren't assigned one by the developer. SmashWiki might not be official, but that does not mean it is ok to use symbols and other iconografy for contexts completely different from what they were originally meant to, considering also that it causes confusion between pages that use the symbol in its proper official context and others that use it as a placeholder. --Rdrfc (talk) 09:39, February 17, 2020 (EST)
Read what I wrote above. The staff has decided that the Battlefield symbol is to be used. If you want to know their reasonings read the archive of this talk page.   OmegαToαd64 09:54, February 17, 2020 (EST)
Literally no one argued about the possibility of dropping placeholder symbols altogether in the archived talk page, so that's still unsatisfactory reasoning to me. --Rdrfc (talk) 11:08, February 17, 2020 (EST)
I have considered the idea of dropping the placeholder symbol before the ellipsis thing came. But the admins wanted there to be some kind of symbol. Then Ultimate gives us a symbol for "Other" and they decided to only use it for lists about Ultimate while all the characters continue to use the Battlefield symbol, including the primary Spirits that used the ellipsis in-game like Spring Man. I really don't get why they love the Battlefield symbol so much. More people in the archived discussion favored the ellipsis. I understand the need for a placeholder symbol because losing it would break formatting. But the decision to keep using the Battlefield symbol after we've been given a better alternative broke this wiki. SeanWheeler (talk) 14:30, February 17, 2020 (EST)
SmashWiki is consenses based, not vote count. More valid reasons were provided to keep the Battlefield symbol (ellipses looked out of place compared to actual symbols, they looked like misplaced text, etc.) whereas the only valid reason for the ellipses was because it was official. If there are other reasons that make the ellipses better that you can provide then go ahead and mention them.   OmegαToαd64 17:51, February 17, 2020 (EST)
  • Responding to SeanWheeler, as much as I agree with your reasonings, you're acting a little pretentious about it, which might be part of why changing it failed initially. I do agree with Toomai and OmegaToad that the ellipsis causes problems visually. While I am very unsatisfied with the current solution, this isn't a black-and-white use the official one because it's official. Even though I'm leaning a little more towards your side, try to be a little more civil.
  • Resp to OmegaToad, Captstalker gave a pretty good argument above: The reason why people think the ellipsis is better is not that it is official, it's because the meaning of the battlefield symbol is not clear, and that's why people always question the symbol, but the ellipsis can accurately express the meaning of "other". There were reasons being stated to use the ellipsis beyond it being official; they were just being ignored, probably because that fact was wrongly being used as the main argument.
    • Also, the unofficial rule says to use unofficial terms only if the official term is much less popular. This definitey isn't the case here, as people outside of this wiki everywhere use the ellipsis. Even though I still don't 100% like the ellipsis, shooting it down because this wiki is unofficial is, for lack of a better term, asinine.
  • Reason to Toomai, I don't think the Battlefield symbol is used in a minor enough context to think of as "everything else". It's on the stage select screen, and on one of the few competitively legal stages to boot. I see two problems with it:
    • For people newer to the series, they'll think "what the hell is this?" when they see the Battlefield symbol. I legitimately can not describe what it is when I look at is. As badly as an ellipsis fits in with the other symbols, this one does just as bad of a job. I was confused about what this thing even was until recently, and I don't want others to make the same mistake.
    • For people who already know that it is used in other contexts, they’ll wonder why this is being used as the placeholder when they constantly see competitive Melee players selecting Battlefield. Part of why I initially suggested the Wii U Custom Stages symbol was because custom stages at least aren't legal, and thus less people would know about it.
  • Responding to Rdrfc, I do think not having a placeholder there might be a good thing to try, but rather than just not having an image there, perhaps making a blank image to put there? Not having an image there would mess with the formatting.

I knew that this was a touchy subject, and I apologize for reviving it. I do think that the Battlefield symbol is one of the worst choices for a placeholder, but I was hoping that this would stay a civil discussion. Viewing this as a semi-neutral party, all I see right now is people on both sides ignoring each others' arguments because they're all blindly sticking with their own ideals, and this just isn't healthy for this wiki's growth. Everybody, please act more civilly and listen to each others' arguments from now on. Thank you. 72.203.118.154 20:39, February 17, 2020 (EST)

For clarity I'm no way against changing the symbol, it's just they're all used in the wrong contexts. I'm trying to say the staff decided to use the Battlefield symbol to avoid heated discussions because some users, namely SeanWheeler, are acting like this wiki is biased against using ellipses despite valid reasons to oppose using it were given. Also the meaning ellipsis can also be unclear and easily misinterpreted similar to the Battlefield symbol, as mentioned in my edited comment: Toomai made a good point that the ellipses look like misplaced text or even a "click here to open a menu" button.
The main reason I stick to Battlefield is not necessarily because of the staff, but because it's the most neutral. It's a series symbol that fits well with the others, but was also used in minor contexts. The only problem I have with it is that it's used on Battlefield (SSBM)'s (aka the best Battlefield) page while it's a Smash Bros series stage, not an "other" series stage, which is why I'm not a 100% fan with any of the other series symbol suggestions, including Battlefield.   OmegαToαd64 22:22, February 17, 2020 (EST)
I've tried to listen to the other side. But when they tell us not to use the ellipsis because it was only used in Ultimate but instead insist to keep using that symbol from one stage from Melee on characters who've used the ellipsis in World of Light, that negates the point. And while the ellipsis may have only been in Ultimate, that game alone has made those dots the symbol for over 80 different series. Almost every series from past Smash games had made some appearance in Ultimate and only a couple of series are not yet officially marked by a symbol. And while discussions may not be won by vote count, it seems like this discussion will never end as long as that Battlefield symbol is there. Can we please give the ellipsis a chance? SeanWheeler (talk) 01:58, February 18, 2020 (EST)
  • I do agree with OmegaToad64 and Toomai that the ellipsis looks like misplaced text. However, I disagree that it looks like a menu extension; menu extensions tend to be in the corners of boxes, not smack dab in the middle.
  • Looking though this talk page's archive and the series symbol talk page, SeanWheeler is right that part of the reason why the ellipsis wasn't being used is because it is only used in one game. However, so has the Battlefield symbol, making this reason contradictory.
  • Responding to OmegaToad64, (it still fits with the style of series symbols) I disagree heavily. As I mentioned earlier, my first thought upon seeing the Battlefield symbol was "is this even a real icon", and not "oh this is the symbol that represents everything else".
  • Part of why the ellipsis wasn't used but the Battlefield symbol was is because of problems that arise from using the ellipsis. But think; the Battlefield symbol is causing a ton of problems too. I mentioned my confusion, but I'm not the only one confused and unsatisfied.
  • Judging by the Megalovania video and Spirits descriptions fan site I linked above, it's not unknown that an ellipsis is used as the "everything else" symbol, which would decrease the amount of people who think the ellipsis is misplaced text. People who think it is misplaced text will still exist, but the number is likely going to be minuscule because of how known it is that an ellipsis is used as the "everything else" symbol.
While I do agree that there are valid reasons not to use the ellipsis, I don't see any valid reasons to keep using the Battlefield symbol. I see three solutions to this.
1. Switch over to the Wii U custom stages symbol. It fits in with the other symbols much better than the Battlefield symbol, and I don't think "what the hell is this" when I see it, and it isn't present in competitive videos because custom stages aren't used. The only other options are either too small or fanmade. I do want to reiterate, I don't like the ellipsis; I mostly just despise using the Batglefield symbol.
2. Go with Rdfc's suggestion of not having a placeholder. However, instead of not having an image there, a blank image about the size of the other symbols should fix any formatting errors.
3. A much as I dislike the ellipsis, I have to agree that there are more valid reasons to use it over the Battlefield symbol. Use it for a week, then have a poll to see if people do in fact have problems. If this wiki's infrastructure is anything like Wikipedia's, the poll could be an automatic notification for everybody, with the poll only being accepted if a reason is given.
I'm not 100% sure what the change should be, but the Battlefield symbol just does an awful job as a placeholder. Something needs to change, because using an indescribable symbol that doesn't fit in with the other symbols that was used on a legal stage in one game is causing confusion, not just for the original instigators, but several IP's and new users (me included) after this discussion originally closed. As much as I dislike the ellipsis, its usage in Ultimate is definitely known outside of this wiki. I would much rather deal with a clearly known symbol on other Smash fan sites that looks like misplaced text instead of a completely unrecognizable symbol that that can't even be described properly. 72.203.118.154 05:30, February 18, 2020 (EST)
For what is worth, while I see the points about the ellipsis potentially being confusing and not recognizable as a series symbol, I think that they are way overblown. Any user that has browsed the wiki even for a short amount of time will recognize that it is used as a symbol, due to being a gray .svg and being in the same place as other series symbol. Not fitting with the other symbols is 1. subjective, as some other symbols like Mega Man's or Miiverse's are also quite generic looking 2. something that also applies to SSBM Battlefield's symbol, even more so because of how abstract it is 3. arguably the point because it instantly signals that the character in question belongs to a minor series, something that the currently used symbol fails to convey as clearly due to its aforementioned abstractness, compared to the ellipsis which have an universally recognized meaning as a symbol. There is also a big chance that an user is already familiar with the ellipsis symbol through the game itself or other community content (such as Youtube OST uploads) using it in a similar context.
About the Wii U custom stages symbol, it might convey the meaning of "miscellaneous" more clearly, but it still is a symbol intended by the developers for something else, and not used by anyone in the community except potentially us for this context; everyone else in the community does what the developers themselves do: using either blank spaces or the Ultimate ellipsis to signal minor series. --Rdrfc (talk) 11:56, February 18, 2020 (EST)
A blank image would just look like there's no image there, and in an infobox it would look like there's too much unnecessary negative space, that you'd might as well remove that invisible image to make the infobox look better, only for the concerns of a missing symbol to come back. If it was between an empty image or the ellipsis, I'd use the ellipsis. Besides, Goldeneye might be the only universe at this point without a symbol if we put an ellipsis on every minor universe in Ultimate. And that gave us the Motion-Sensor Bomb that was changed to a Smash original item. And since the Motion-Sensor Bomb would have the Smash Ball symbol while pages on minor universes don't use the miscellaneous symbol, there's nothing pre-Ultimate to worry about. Maybe the Brawl Trophy list disambiguation, but Brawl didn't use symbols for Trophies. Not even for the fighter-related Trophies. Yet, Waluigi had the mushroom symbol on this Wiki before Smash 4 used symbols in the Trophy Gallery because he's from the Mario series. Geno had the mushroom symbol on this wiki while he was just a Mii Costume because he's a Mario character. All characters and items that came from a series that had a fighter rep used that fighter's series symbol even before they were seen with that symbol in-game. So if a Primary Spirit gets a symbol, the Support Spirits which don't have symbols should have a symbol to match the characters of their series that do. SeanWheeler (talk) 18:20, February 18, 2020 (EST)

Look I get that some of you are passionate about this (very narrow) subject, but you're just being an echo chamber at this point. Nothing new is being brought to the table here; every argument recently presented has been seen many times before. Please stop bloating this talkpage. Toomai Glittershine   Da Bomb 19:55, February 18, 2020 (EST)

Ellipsis or not, the fact of the matter is that the Battlefield symbol completely fails as the placeholder. While I'm with you that this talk page has been bloated with repeated arguments, the repetition does not make them invalid, and something has to change. And it's not a narrow enough issue to ignore, because there are many pages not related to a fighter-based series. 72.203.118.154 20:47, February 18, 2020 (EST)
Toomai, I have no idea how to convince you. And I'm just tired of arguing. Lou Cena has made a draft of this proposal. And I think an old-fashioned majority vote could settle this. Your ending sure didn't work because here we are back in this discussion repeating arguments because too many people disagreed with what you settled on and we've run out of arguments. It seems like we're too persistent about this. And the pro-ellipsis side had good points. It's hard to accept the Battlefield symbol after all that stuff in the discussion. The custom stages symbol is being considered. So can I ask Lou to revise his proposal into a voting proposal? If a fair vote doesn't get us out of this stalemate, I don't know what will. SeanWheeler (talk) 00:06, February 19, 2020 (EST)
What? He's blocked? Well, at least it's until June. Well, I would suggest we wait or just listen to the majority and use the ellipsis now? SeanWheeler (talk) 00:22, February 19, 2020 (EST)

Being loud does not make you correct. SmashWiki does not operate on vote count. You tried to drag a blocked user into this discussion. I strongly suggest you realise that this is not changing just because 3-4 users are complaining. Toomai Glittershine   The Aurum 06:57, February 19, 2020 (EST)

Now Sean, like I mentioned I'm not a fan of using the Battlefield symbol myself, but there's something I need to bring up on how you're handling the ellipses side, and it's making it difficult to listen to your reasonings as a result: You're acting like you absolutely need to have ellipses to represent the other series and that we are biased against using it. Rather than the main reason being to support the majority's side, it's more like on the lines to satisfy yourself. The IP mentions that "you're acting a little pretentious about it, which might be part of why changing it failed initially." and I have to agree. You yourself said "I really don't get why they love the Battlefield symbol so much", which is completely false. We don't love it, it's what we agreed to use: We listed valid reasons why the ellipses would be problematic and decided to stick with Battlefield, how does this make us "love" the Battlefield symbol?
Furthermore you trying to convince Toomai to change his mind and rush us to try switching to the ellipses gives the impression that you're upset because things didn't go the way you initially wanted. If you keep trying to push us to use the ellipses, the harder it is for us to agree with you and follow through, and as mentioned by the IP this could be one of the reasons why the change initally failed.
If you want some tips then read the IP's comments: they take our responses and thoroughly evaluate them, afterwards they give reasonable responses that sees the pros and cons of each side. And after reading these comments I need to be honest that one of the biggest issues I have with Battlefield is that the same symbol is used to represent a Smash original stage alongside universes that are unrelated to Smash. Even though I'm still leaning towards Battlefield I'm more on the neutral side. So Sean you can still give reasons as to why we should consider using ellipses, but please try to keep it at least a bit more reasonable at the same time.   OmegαToαd64 07:47, February 19, 2020 (EST)
Thank you OmegaToad for reading my responses to everybody. To add on to why I think the Wii U Custom Stages symbol would be a better fit (and I don't believe I mentioned this before), it's because even the context it is officially used fits better as "everything else". Battlefield is a Smash-original stage, while custom stages can be anything, including stuff from series represented by costumes or assist trophies. Thus, it actually can be thought of as "everything" when knowing the actual context, instead of just vaguely looking like it like the Battlefield symbol does. 72.203.118.154 17:28, February 19, 2020 (EST)
Mii Costumes use the Smash Ball symbol. While Assist Trophies don't use symbols, several of them got the ellipsis in Spirits. When you put something in a custom stage like a drawing of Goku from Dragon Ball Z, it is a fanmade stage so the custom stages symbol wouldn't be "officially" used for Dragon Ball or any other unrepped franchise because anyone can put anything in their custom stages. SeanWheeler (talk) 00:11, February 21, 2020 (EST)

Sean, while I agree with your prior reasons for he ellipsis, I also understand that it is not going to be used. This is why I suggested the Custom Stages Symbol; it doesn't have the visibility issues of the ellipsis, and it doesn't have the indescribability or abstractness of the Battlefield symbol. Custom Stages is a decent compromise between not having either visibility, ugliness, or wrong-meaning issues (and yes, I'm referring to both the ellipsis and Battlefield symbols when I say ugly). 72.203.118.154 00:46, February 21, 2020 (EST)

Unfortunately, I think the custom stages symbol, despite looking better, still carries most of the negative baggage of the Battlefield symbol. It is still used in a wrongful context, and it is not a widely accepted symbol in the community (in fact, we would be the only ones to use it). While SmashWiki might not be official, that does not mean we can just make up things as we like; it would be like ignoring official terminology that has been adopted by the entire community just because a few admins of the wiki think the terms they made up sound better and/or are more descriptive. I still stand to my opinion that dropping placeholder symbols altogether is the most sane alterative to the ellipsis, instead of shoehorning symbols in contexts where they don't belong just for the sake of having a symbol. --Rdrfc (talk) 05:31, February 21, 2020 (EST)
While the best case scenario would be to stick to the official one, 4 admins have outright refused to use it. I agree with you that we can't just make up meanings for these symbols, but unfortunately I don't see the proper symbol being used anytime soon. Is it fine if I bold that part of your comment? That's a very good reason that I think the admins should consider. 72.203.118.154 10:41, February 21, 2020 (EST)
You know, maybe it's better to leave the minor universes without a symbol. That way, on the sortable wikitables when you sort them by universe, the universes would be completely alphabetical instead of having all the minor universes grouped with the S's. And in the infoboxes, the symbols are just taking up space in the caption field and I think some characters can do without a symbol. It does match how Assist Trophy showcase presentations, the Wii U Trophy Gallery, and most of the spirits mode has no symbol when there should be, and the infoboxes for minor universes lack a symbol anyway. SeanWheeler (talk) 19:54, February 21, 2020 (EST)
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