Talk:Forward smash/Knockback chart: Difference between revisions

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Talk:Forward smash/Knockback chart (edit)

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Nyargleblargle

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 :'''Delete or merge with parent page.''' Not because of the issues in the tag, but the fact that we don't do pages like this for any non-Smash attacks. Plus, we shouldn't have pages solely for comparing things IMO. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 16:03, 20 November 2016 (EST)
 :Bump <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 17:49, 23 November 2016 (EST)
+::'''KO'''. This page is not really needed, i echo the reasons explained above. --[[File:BeepYouSignature.png|40px]] [[User:BeepYou|<font color="Black">'''BeepYou'''</font>]] [[File:BeepYouSignature.png|40px]] [[User talk:BeepYou|<font color="Black">'''(talk)'''</font>]] 18:21, 23 November 2016 (EST)
+:::Last bump <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 20:31, 26 November 2016 (EST)
+== Reopening discussion ==
+On Discord's old conversation logs, I came across discussion for this page and its related pages' deletion, where I seen a couple remarks hoping I wouldn't see this talk page. I have to say such an attitude is disappointing, and it's a bit underhanded to go through with deleting without making an effort to contact someone who could provide indepth insight into the page.
+Well I checked the deletion discussion out, and here are the problems I have with it:
+*Some clear misunderstanding of the page, while no attempt was made to better understand it.
+*A seeming laziness involved, where instead of discussing ways on how to clean up and fix information, and applying this concept to other move types, people went deletionist to rid of any effort.
+*Nyargle deleted this page and the other Smash charts, in less than two weeks after the deletion tag was applied with only four people commenting on it, for discussion that all together didn't even take up two paragraphs. For such a large swath of information, there certainly should have been thorough discussion on it and a chance for possible dissenting views to get heard before wiping it out of public view (and again, before making an attempt to contact the admin that was familiar with the page).
+So after talking it over with Serpent King, I decided to reopen the discussion of this page (and by extension the other knockback charts), to get a more productive discussion before wiping this information out for good, where ways to improve the page can be discussed, or better deletion reasons with more clear consensus can happen.
+So for some things to fix:
+*Convert the Brawl "knockback velocity" units to actual knockback units, for consistency with the other games.
+*Do what the Brawl chart does with the other games, for more objective approximate values, as in find the actual knockback units needed to KO from standard in those games from various DIs and then do the math.
+*Base the "KO% knockback" off the trajectory of the individual moves, instead of considering only the Sakurai angle for all of them.
+So then, what comments do people have, or what additional arguments can people bring up for its deletion? <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 02:46, 31 March 2017 (EDT)
+:As I said in Discord, I am fine with this getting a rebirth, as long as the information is accurately and completely compiled. As it is now, everything that isn't Brawl is totally useless as we have no idea the parameters used in these individual tests. When they are reconstructed, they should use the same (or closest possible, anything (like not actually having KB values in SSB) should be noted) criteria as the Brawl ones so we don't run into the same mess we have now. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 03:07, 31 March 2017 (EDT)
+::Do we really need this page? All of this information ought to be in the moveset pages of each character. Having it all here is a little redundant, but does serve as a way to compare the different moves. I wish there was a way to merge this with [[Forward smash]]. If we have this kind of page for smash attacks, shouldn't we also have one for every other move type in the games? <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">HUAH!</span>]]</b> 09:37, 31 March 2017 (EDT)
+:::"''i wish there was a way to merge this with [[Forward smash]]''"
+:::This page is already a subpage of the forward smash page.
+:::"''If we have this kind of page for smash attacks, shouldn't we also have one for every other move type in the games?''"
+:::I don't see why statements like these keep getting made, when experienced users (and especially an admin per the prior convo) by default should assume the nonexistence of similar concept pages is from the fact no one just ever did it at this point, like how the vast majority of the individual move pages are nonexistent or mostly incomplete, rather than act it was an deliberate effort to keep them from being made.
+:::With that said, of course the other attacks should have such a page to them when this exists. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 09:56, 31 March 2017 (EDT)
+::::I feel that three properties of attacks of a specific input aren't significant enough for their own subpage and only serve to require more page loading for those looking for the strongest and weakest Forward Smashes. I would be fine with having hidden sections or tables on the main page, but the current arrangement is too clunky in my view. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 21:28, 2 April 2017 (EDT)
+OT, you may have explained what we needed to do with the page, but why is it a ''necessity'' to have? [[User:Ganonmew|<span style="color: green;">'''Ganonmew'''</span>]], [[User talk:Ganonmew|<span style="color: green;">'''The Evil Clone'''</span>]] 18:30, 8 April 2017 (EDT)
+:How is objective information that actually reflects gameplay and is of interest to readers a "non-necessity"? You should read CHawk's comment in the very first discussion on this page back from when it was first made, this kind of information is what a wiki is for.
+:@Nyargle: I do not understand what you are saying; are you trying to claim somehow a subpage affects the loading of the main page, and that "causes more loading" is an actual reason to consider the inclusion of information? <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:45, 8 April 2017 (EDT)
+::I'm referring to this setup leading to users looking for data either going on the character pages, which wouldn't involve a page like this at all, or Forward smash, which in turn requires navigation to a subpage that's tedious at best from the reader's point of view. The exact phrase I used was pretty oversimplified, but I was referring to loading from a reader's perspective, not a technical one. Of course, I see the value in having this information in sortable tables, so I'm in favor of a '''merge''' with the main page. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 22:19, 10 April 2017 (EDT)
+:::I largely oppose a merge with the main page as it would needlessly bulk it up. The page layout as we have it is fine, it just needs to be corrected. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 03:37, 11 April 2017 (EDT)
+::::If you're referring to how long the later lists are, we could always make the tables collapsible or something. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 13:28, 14 April 2017 (EDT)