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Magiciandude

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 :::There, that's everything from that huge block of statistics. If you want me to read and reply to everything else posted the past week, I'll do it later. To be honest, my main point today was proving that Toon Link is in a class all his own, and he is the only true clone of Brawl.- [[Special:Contributions/71.87.116.224|71.87.116.224]] 14:23, 16 June 2013 (EDT)
+::::If you don't like huge walls of text, feel free to not reply to these posts.
+::::If Mario's fair meteor smashes and Dr. Mario's does not, that is a huge functioning difference which means they are not identical. Functioning is important.
+::::Ness's PK Fire does not angle slightly, it angles 45 degrees. That is not slight. And Ness's PK Fire hits multiple times, which is a different functioning and hitboxes than Lucas'.
+::::If you say that hitboxes are important in determining function, guess what, Toon Link's dash attack has less range than Link's. Having the same animation AND function determines a cloned move. Also, Mario and Luigi's up specials actually have different hitboxes, Luigi has a powerful sweetspot at the startup, and Mario's delivers multiple hits. That's a difference in hitboxes. We're not comparing the cloned moves to the moves of other characters, it's whether they have the same animation and functioning.
+::::Whether two attacks do the exact same thing is an important part of what makes a move cloned.
+::::Different knockback or damage matters a lot, that's different functioning. Stop ignoring this crucial piece of information.
+::::Fox and Falco have a more similar dash attack than Link and Toon Link. And sure, it's the same basic move, but you are overlooking the details of it, such as the amount of knockback and functioning. The details are important. OT is saying that Warlock and Falcon Punch are semi-cloned, if not cloned. Animation and functioning are of similar levels of priority, and you say that damage is not irrelevant, but act like it is.
+::::It's a royal pain to go through your walls of text as well, especially since you keep ignoring what we say about how functioning is important.
+::::To address your main point:
+::::Physics? Toon Link moves fast, Link moves slow, that's a big difference. Physics is important in determine cloneship. Kirby and Jigglypuff in SSB have the same physics, that's one of the defining reasons they can be considered semi-clones. The same goes for Ness and Lucas.
+::::Down tilt: Same animation, ''but different knockback angles''. Stop saying that function is not important in determining cloneship, because it is.
+::::Dash attack: If you say they are semi-cloned, then that should be a half a point, because a semi-cloned move is worth .5 on the chart. And if you think it's enough to be a cloned move, look at the difference in '''functioning'''. They are not exactly the same to be considered cloned moves.
+::::Fsmash: Again, '''functioning difference.'''
+::::Dsmash: '''different function'''. It's not about whether the developers copy-pasted a character's coding.
+::::Forward throw: same '''function'''. And no, not all forward throws have identical knockback and trajectory. Knockback and trajectory are not the same. Two attacks can have the same trajectory but different knockback.
+::::Dair: Different '''function'''. There's also a difference in the way they plummet, Toon Link's [[Stall-Then-Fall|falls faster]], and you can't control Toon Link's trajectory until he hits.
+::::Neutral special: The slower speed and different knockback angle is a difference in '''function'''.
+::::Up special: The number of hits is a difference in '''function'''. It's not "minor".
+::::Which equates to much less than a 15.5 out of 22. Being the most cloned characters in the game has nothing to do with whether they are clones or not.
+::::Until you understand that '''functioning''' is important in determining cloneship, don't reply here and waste our time. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 15:32, 16 June 2013 (EDT)
+::::"''It's not my fault your huge walls of texts, bulleted lists, and general talk page layouts are making this a pain to dredge through. Fine, if you won't listen to reason otherwise, I'll take a few hours to go through it.''"
+::::You're the one who won't listen to reason. How many fucking times have we explained function to you and you keep ignoring it?
+::::"''You think I don't know how to play the game? I've played over 1500 matches solo and 1200+ online. I know what the moves do. Function is not the primary factor of what makes a move cloned.''"
+::::If you did play that much, you would know that a move's function '''determines how it actually works'''. Stop acting like the same casuals who call Wolf a clone.
+::::"''Hitbox is not function. Two moves can have the same hitbox and have totally different knockbacks or damage types. Anything AFTER the opponent stops taking damage from the move is irrelevant. Dr. Mario's f-air is not a meteor smash. Mario's is. That doesn't make them any less cloned.''"
+::::Alright dude, you're just being flat out retarded now. What the hitbox does '''is the function'''. Each hitbox has a damage value, knockback values, a trajectory it knocks opponents in, and a bunch of other values determining its effects when it hits. What happens after the opponent gets hit '''is determined by the hitbox'''. Having the same hitbox would mean '''the hitboxes have the same values''', and would thus '''have the same exact effect on the opponent'''. A move having its hitbox radically altered (like Doc's fair) does make the move less cloned, as it does not work like the move it was cloned from. Hence why such moves are '''considered semi-cloned moves'''.
+::::"''You're completely taking my explanation out of context. I was trying to show that having the same animation AND same hitbox determines a cloned move. Both Super Jump Punches hit basically the same distance and angle (luigi's being straighter). But compare, say, Ike, whose up special move throws his sword up, then plunges down. OR kirby's, which fires a projectile. Now look back at the bros and you can clearly see how that move is cloned compared to most other characters''"
+::::They don't have the same hitbox you fucking idiot. And you completely ignored what I pointed out about the up smashes. The Mario Bros' Jump Punches don't even have the same animation, Mario punches diagonally, while Luigi punchs straight up. And their hitboxes are radically different.
+::::"''I never said wolf was a clone. And ad hominems and personal attacks do not make you right. I never said "identical". Earlier you complained that I don't see semi-clones, but now you're making the same comparison, I never said two moves had to do the exact same thing to be cloned.''"
+::::I don't know what you're going on about here. I compared you to the people who call Wolf a clone, as just as they get pedantic about Wolf's specials having a similar motif as Fox's, you're getting pedantic about a move's animation (and aren't understanding what a hitbox is), with both them and you showing a gross misunderstanding of the game. And you're saying a move just has to have the "same animation" to be cloned, completely ignoring the value of the move's functions.
+::::"''Cloning is not about being totally different moves with the same effects. Likewise, having different knockback or damage does NOT matter one bit. In previous games, when moves were cloned, they had a clear source and followed almost the same or very similar animations and hitboxes, with minor effects.''"
+::::Cloning is a gray subject, there is no black or white to it, and it is done to varying degrees. Animation is just one part of it, the move's function is hugely important, and if the knockback and damage vary enough to where it changes a move's function, then yes it fucking matters. In Melee with the Melee clones, guess what, not only did their attacks have their animation cloned, but the vast majority of their attacks '''had the same function''' as the move they were cloned from. As a result, they played identically to the character they were cloned from, thus fitting the bill of a clone. Stop being stupid.
+::::"''Functional difference, as I have stated, doesn't really matter. You can Clearly see they perform almost exactly the same moves.''"
+::::If the move's were "the same", they wouldn't just have the same animation, but they would '''do the same exact thing, with the same effects'''.
+::::"''Granted toon link's dash attack has a slightly flatter arc, but it's clearly copied straight from link. They both are quick, low angled slashes that end abruptly.''"
+::::Only the animation is copied from Link, the move's hitboxes were drastically altered to do different things. Thus a semi-cloned move. Stop ignoring function.
+::::"''And before you go claiming that "all dash attacks are the same then" or whatever, look at Ike and Marth, the other swordsmen. Ike brings his sword behind him, then quickly thrusts it forward. Marth draws back, then does a wide slash while sliding. Nobody else in the game has a dash attack like the Links share.''"
+::::This is irrelevant. Many characters have dash attacks with similar animations (Yoshi and Pikachu, DK and Charizard, etc.). And I go to it again you keeping ignoring it; '''''function is just as important as animation'''''.
+::::"''Warlock Punch and Falcon punch may be slightly different in animation, but that doesn't matter due to both hitbox and control being the same, as well as both dealing similar damage. They even have the same 180 power up. If you don't accept them as cloned, they're at least semi-cloned.''"
+::::They don't only have "slightly different animation", there are only so many ways you can throw a punch. Are we gonna say Sonic's f-smash, Bowser's f-tilt, and other punch based moves are cloned because they're punches forward? And hey guess what, you know how their hitboxes produce similar effects (hit opponents very powerfully in the basic horizontal trajectory), and both have the 180 thing? '''''That's function''''', and here you are using it to justify calling Warlock Punch and Falcon Punch cloned. '''Stop being hypocritical'''.
+::::"''You're completely missing the point. I did not SAY anyone called Dr. Mario not a clone, I said that your reasoning would imply they are not.''"
+::::Strawman, and if my reasoning would result in them not being considered clones, then just how the hell they did scores an 88% on my charts here? '''Did you even fucking read them?''' Guess what, while some of their moves having function differences (fair, f-smash), the vast majority of their moves '''had their function cloned'''.
+::::"''Oh good, more insults. Yeah calling me a retard totally proves your point.''"
+::::I will call you out on your stupidity. Perhaps look at what you're doing, before whining about that?
+::::"''If I don't respond, the problem does not get fixed. However it's a royal pain to go through this wall of text, as I had initially stated.''"
+::::If you can't handle it, '''don't respond then'''. It just makes it look like you're half assing.
+::::"''Physics are, like damage, least importance. Kirby and Jigglypuff have similar physics, so what? The only time I would put physics into consideration is as a tiebreak of sorts.''"
+::::And this is exactly why I question how much you actually play this game. If physics don't matter, what is a major reason why the [[space animals]] play so differently from Mario? If physics didn't matter, why do Ness and Lucas do poorly in competitive play because their physics? If physics didn't matter, Mario and Fox would feel just like each other, just with different moves. Even in your example, Kirby and Jigglypuff don't have similar physics outside SSB64 (where guess what, they're considered semi-cloned in part of that). Physics are a huge part, and you can't fucking ignore them. Don't brush them off.
+::::Ack responded to the moves, so I won't go through that. However, I'm warning you now. You already shown a biased agenda, by using function to claim Warlock Punch being a cloned move of Falcon Punch, then hypocritically completely ignoring it to label Toon Link a clone of Link. If you keep ignoring function (and by extension physics) when it goes against your claim of what you want to call a clone, I'll have to start wondering if you're just being a troll (as you keep egging this on, while just blatantly ignoring what we're saying when it goes against Toon Link being a clone), and treat you as such. If you are being serious about this, then really, stop with this.
+::::Also, if you think function and physics don't matter, look up Toon Link and Link pros playing their characters in tournament, and explain then how Toon Link plays remarkably different than Link? If they didn't, and animation was everything, Toon Link would play identically to Link, and you could just hop from one to the other with little loss of skill.
+::::I also strongly recommend you see this [[Mario (SSBB)#Moveset|this]], so you can see what goes into making a hitbox, before responding any farther. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 20:56, 16 June 2013 (EDT)
+== SSB4 clone chart ==
+I know you're busy in real life, but I was wondering if you ever intend to make a clone chart for SSB4. [[User:Magiciandude|Magiciandude]] ([[User talk:Magiciandude|talk]]) 14:35, 17 July 2015 (EDT)