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User talk:Miles of SmashWiki/Archive14: Difference between revisions
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:::I honestly don't want to get into a huge ass argument. All I'm trying to say is "hey, some people don't believe what you think, so buck up and face the facts for once." [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan the'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aura Master'''</span>]] 20:54, 14 March 2015 (EDT) | :::I honestly don't want to get into a huge ass argument. All I'm trying to say is "hey, some people don't believe what you think, so buck up and face the facts for once." [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan the'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aura Master'''</span>]] 20:54, 14 March 2015 (EDT) | ||
::::I just want to make sure that you understand the difference between a fact and an opinion. I also use evidence the professional players because these are the only people that Miles seems to trust and believe in. People who are knowledgeable about a subject are usually trusted in terms of information about that subject. The fact that people have different ideas compared to me is completely irrelevant to whether their views are correct or not, and that shouldn't stop from trying to defend and undo a dumb decision made by and administrator. You can criticize me for using wall of text if you want. However, don't expect things to go in your favor if your opponent has a ton of points to say about the subject, and you refuse to refute anything he says. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 21:02, 14 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::You know, a user [http://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_(universe)&curid=2999&diff=655074&oldid=654678 just made this edit], in which he edited a section stating that Mario is considered the most famous video game character. The section that the user edited was entirely concerned about the community's opinion on video game characters. If SmashWiki is to completely disregard the community's opinion on everything, why didn't you remove that section of the article as well? You are quick to remove anything that has to do with the competitive scene, yet you're completely okay with something dealing with the casual fanbase; to me, this shows that you only want to remove anything to do with competitive Smash from the wiki, and you only apply your "rules" and "policies" to things that you don't like. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 21:02, 14 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
::::You didn't read the entire section. It states, and I quote: | |||
::::''"...he is more popular to Americans than other very well known characters like [[Sonic]], [[Mega Man]], Bugs Bunny, Mickey Mouse, Superman, Batman, Spider-Man and Captain America."'' | |||
::::That's not the community. That's a '''survey''' conducted by someone other than a Smash player. | |||
::::''"The fact that people have different ideas compared to me is completely irrelevant to whether their views are correct or not."'' | |||
::::Are you really ''that'' errogant? You're basically saying "they have different opinions, but they're wrong because it's not what I think." I really have nothing to say about that. [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan the'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aura Master'''</span>]] 21:07, 14 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::::''"That's not the community. That's a '''survey''' conducted by someone other than a Smash player."'' | |||
:::::If you're going to use a survey as a source, the survey must be done reliably and you need a link to it. | |||
:::::''"Are you really ''that'' errogant? You're basically saying "they have different opinions, but they're wrong because it's not what I think." I really have nothing to say about that."'' | |||
:::::That is not what I meant at all. Read about the fallacy {{s|wikipedia|I'm entitled to my opinion}}. You can have your opinion about something, but saying "I'm entitled to my opinion" has nothing to do with the validity of your opinion. You can claim "Miles has his own opinion so leave him alone," but that is irrelevant to whether Miles' opinion is correct or incorrect. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 21:12, 14 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
::::::My opinion also happens to align with SmashWiki's policy on style and content. If your opinion is so radically different that you find the two incompatible, you're free to take your efforts elsewhere. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 21:16, 14 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::::::So now you're going to cry "I'm entitled to my own opinion! Too bad!" without even presenting any arguments or discussing anything else I said? You've failed to respond this whole "we report on what the community thinks" debate multiple times now. I presented an argument comparing this to historical events, where it's helpful to present information about the public's reaction, and you went on to ignore what I said and tried to make me look like a bad person for using 9/11 as an example. That shows to me that you haven't responded to what I said. During the Ridley discussion, after OT presented a bunch of arguments, you ignored everything he said and started asking everyone else for their input instead of attempting to refute his points. | |||
:::::::Once again, you completely ignored what I said about staying away from topics you don't know much about. Do you see why people think you're a bad admin? A good admin should hold themselves responsible for their own mistakes. Don't be a coward. Either own up to what you did wrong and don't do it again, or improve your knowledge of the competitive scene before you start touching this section of the wiki again. | |||
:::::::It's true that you're entitled to your opinion. But seeing how the talk page discussions have gone against you and you're refusing to debate the issue anymore, you are not the one who gets to make the final decision and do it all your way. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 23:15, 14 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
::::::::Since you still don't seem to get it: '''"we report on what the community thinks" is not a primary goal of SmashWiki and you need to stop treating it as such.''' There have been times I have made mistakes in regard to this wiki's competitive content, but this is not one of them. I have made a concerted effort to keep myself informed. You are over the line in terms of [[SW:NPA]] and are clogging my talk page and recent changes with pointless bickering. This will be my last reply to you on the subject, since I have no intention of encouraging your endless desire for baseless criticism. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 23:27, 14 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::What reasoning do you have to support the notion that "we report on what the community thinks" is not a primary goal of SmashWiki? Haven't you debated this issue already and clearly came out on the bottom on multiple occasions? Are you just supporting this because [http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html it's been the "status quo?"] There's a reason why the SmashWiki policies can be changed, you know. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 23:33, 14 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
<small>(Reset indent) </small>You know, that's what sets opinions apart from facts: they're neither wrong nor right. That's what makes them ''opinions''. [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan the'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aura Master'''</span>]] 21:21, 14 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
:You can have your opinion, but that doesn't always mean your opinion is the right one. [https://www.google.com/#q=i%27m+entitled+to+my+opinion+fallacy Look up more information about the fallacy if Wikipedia is too hard to understand]. I'll make up an example to show you what the fallacy is. Suppose that there's a group of people who believe that all rocks are living, breathing organisms. They continue to believe that rocks are living no matter what anyone tells them. Scientists all over the globe come up with new research and examination of the structure of rock and conclude that there are no signs of living organisms or cells in rocks. The living-rock people see all this information and what everyone is telling them, but they continue to shrug them off, saying things like, "I just believe that rocks are living creatures," or "I'm entitled to my opinion on whether rocks are living or not. Leave me alone." Even though it's pretty clear in this case that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting the fact that rocks are not living, they still continue to say, "I'm entitled to my opinion." That's basically the fallacy right there. Although it's true that the believers can have their opinion on the issue if they want, saying "I'm entitled to my opinion" does nothing to support their argument and prove their point. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 23:15, 14 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
::I will not deny that fallacy is a mistaken belief. But what I also won't deny is that opinions, at its true definition, are [http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/opinion not meant to be factual]. People believe what they ''want'' to believe. And you believe that Miles has no background knowledge on the competitive community, when, in actuality, he knows damn well what he's doing. | |||
::This isn't SmashBoards. This is an encyclopedia. If people want knowledge about competitive crap, then sure, they can find stuff here, but if they want all the widespread opinions in the community, then they can drag themselves over [http://smashboards.com/ here]. | |||
::I'm not taking Miles's side in this argument, nor am I taking yours, Ac2k; I'm just trying to settle this argument by acting as a third party candidate. [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan the'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aura Master'''</span>]] 23:29, 14 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::''"But what I also won't deny is that opinions, at its true definition, are not meant to be factual."'' | |||
:::It's true that opinions aren't supposed to be factual. But you can advocate your opinion to show why it is the better opinion. Do you know what a debate is? | |||
:::''"And you believe that Miles has no background knowledge on the competitive community, when, in actuality, he knows damn well what he's doing."'' | |||
:::You are clearly mistaken if you believe this. On the Diddy Kong edit summary, he said that "people weren't serious about banning Diddy Kong," when the truth is, this is a major issue in the Smash 4 community. I linked a bunch of discussions on the internet in this section showing how this has blown up in the community. If you look at past archives of his talk page, you can see that he once refused to allow the creation of an article that was important to the competitive Smash 64 community because he thought the name was inappropriate, when SmashWiki is not censored. There are countless other examples showing his incompetence. | |||
:::''"This isn't SmashBoards. This is an encyclopedia. If people want knowledge about competitive crap, then sure, they can find stuff here, but if they want all the widespread opinions in the community, then they can drag themselves over [http://smashboards.com/ here]."'' | |||
:::Reception and reaction from the community has always been an important part of an encyclopedic article. Nearly every article about a product or historical event on Wikipedia has one. Smashboards has always been notoriously difficult to find information from, since the search engines there are broken and you have to dig through so much unrelated content to find what you actually need. | |||
:::''"I'm not taking Miles's side in this argument, nor am I taking yours, Ac2k; I'm just trying to settle this argument by acting as a third party candidate. "'' | |||
:::Saying "It's okay for you guys to both have different opinions, so leave each other alone," is the worst way to "settle" an argument. If we use that mentality all the time, nothing will ever get changed here if the administrators can do whatever they want since nobody's allowed to argue with them. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 09:07, 15 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
::::You know what, Ac2k? It seems to me that you think that '''you're the only one who's right here'''. And you know what? You're ''wrong''. People don't have to do what you say because you think it's wrong. I don't even know why I wanted to bring myself into this argument, and considering how I played a fair role in [[Talk:Tier list/Archive 7#Smash 4 tier list|this long discussion]], I do not want a repeat. I don't see what it will take for you to see that '''not everyone ''has'' to agree with you'''. [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan the'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aura Master'''</span>]] 10:58, 15 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::::Why are you going to tell me that I'm wrong without providing any reasoning for it? Saying "He can have is own opinion so leave him alone!" and baselessly telling people "You're wrong so shut up!" is a poor form of moderating a dispute that adds nothing constructive and will lead to you getting dragged into a discussion that you don't need to get involved in. If your going to tell me that I'm wrong about this, respond to some of points I said. | |||
:::::You don't have to agree with me if you don't want to. But you don't get to decide the outcome if you don't respond to the points people say. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 13:28, 15 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
::::I'm not really going to take any side here (and hopefully I don't want to see this discussion ever again in my personal opinion) but I noticed that you've been kinda quite rude lately in discussions. Sure Miles maybe ignorant about the competitive play and other true information but he's trying to do his job. So no, I wouldn't say Miles is completely at fault here. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Mega Man X SNES sprite.png|19px]] The Penguin 11:27, 15 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::::You should only moderate a section of this wiki if you are knowledgable about that subject. I think that there are better people to be in charge of edits regarding the competitive scene. OT has the best knowledge about the competitive community by far out of all the admins, and thus he should be in charge of moderating the competitive scene here. If he's inactive, that should be the responsibility of someone like you, me, Brian, PMJ3, or other users knowledgeable about the competitive scene. I hate to keep bringing up this issue, but Miles hasn't shown much improvement in areas he was criticized for over a year ago. He continues to make big decisions, yet refuses to respond to anyone when they discuss it with him. He still messes with information dealing with the competitive community, yet hasn't shown much improvement in knowledge of the scene. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 13:28, 15 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
<small>(Reset indent) </small> <nowiki>*</nowiki>points finger* And there's your flaw. Right there. | |||
''"OT has the best knowledge about the competitive community by far out of all the admins, and thus he should be in charge of moderating the competitive scene here."'' | |||
Yes, he may have the best knowledge on the subject, but to me, that sounds like "all information has to be run by OT before it's put up". And the reason why it's a flaw for you is because [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Ownership of articles|no one "owns" an article]]. [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan the'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aura Master'''</span>]] 13:41, 15 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
:That's how moderation works. When someone makes an edit on the wiki, the people in charge read through the article and remove any information that's incorrect or they disagree with. But if you don't know much about a subject and can't be trusted to verify the accuracy of certain content, you leave it to someone who is more knowledgable and can give a better analysis. That's part of working a job; leave things you don't understand to someone who can do it for you. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 14:28, 15 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
:@Ack2k: Even if if someone is not an expert on the scene, they can still fix obviously wrong things. Some of your edits that Miles reverted were beyond obviously speculatory to everyone I've talked to or simply did not belong on the page in question. Stop acting like Miles is the big bad admin who's against everyone else who's "knowledgeable" about competitive play when thats not even the issue here and there's people perfectly "knowledgeable" who do not share your side on this issue. '''''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=navy>D<font color=#190080>o<font color=#310080>c<font color=#490080>t<font color=#620080>o<font color=purple>rP</font>a</font>i</font>n</font>9</font>9</font>]]''''' 13:47, 15 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
::If I made mistakes on the article, fine. I added a bunch of stuff that was really speculatory and shouldn't be there. Maybe I shouldn't be editing the competitive sections of the wiki. But Miles should not be touching things like "Many people think that Diddy should be banned" when anyone who is competitively knowledgeable knows that's true. Miles' idea that "SmashWiki does not prioritize community opinions" is unhealthy for the wiki. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 14:28, 15 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::''"Miles' idea that "SmashWiki does not prioritize community opinions" is unhealthy for the wiki."'' | |||
:::Ok, that's a personal attack if I ever saw one. Knock it off. [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan the'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aura Master'''</span>]] 14:39, 15 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
::::You clearly have no idea what constitutes a personal attack or what our policy on personal attacks is. A personal attack is when you call someone an offensive or derogatory name to insult them. Criticizing another user or their abilities or their opinion of something is definitely not a personal attack. Sure I criticized his opinions, but did I use an offensive term to insult him? No. If I said something like, "Miles is a moron because he believes that we shouldn't report on the community's reaction," that would definitely be a personal attack because I called him a moron. That was not the case here. Read [[SW:NPA|the policy]] before you accuse anyone of using a personal attack, and make sure you thoroughly understand the wiki's policies before accusing anyone of violating them. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 18:08, 15 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
Don't forget to read through the [[Talk:List of Director's Room Miiverse posts/Archive 2#Regarding speculation|Miiverse posts]] argument as well as the [[Talk:Ridley#"Speculation"|Ridley]] debate. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 18:42, 15 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
:It has personally come to my attention that you think that Miles is the main antagonist of SmashWiki and despite being an admin, he is unintentionally trying to make it a worse place. Miles was simply trying to remove things that weren't necessarily true, so quite honestly, he isn't always wrong and was trying to simply do what's right. Also, you seem to treat OT as "the main protagonist of SmashWiki" and that everything on SmashWiki should centralize on what he or the top professionals say in terms of their thoughts and not on facts. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Mega Man X SNES sprite.png|19px]] The Windows 19:28, 15 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
::I know that Miles isn't intentionally trying to harm the wiki, but when he reverts edits saying things like "People aren't serious about banning Diddy Kong," it appears to me that his edits to the competitive scene overall do more bad than good. I look up to OT and other top professionals for competitive information because they are knowledgeable about the competitive scene, and out of all the admins on this wiki, OT is the most knowledgeable about the competitive community. People who know a lot about a subject are generally trusted for information regarding that subject, and OT should be trusted for moderating SmashWiki's articles on the competitive community because he knows most about it. If you want your facts, the other information unrelated to the competitive community can still be on the page; I just think that it's important to cover the community's response to certain events and topics, in addition to what else is already there in the article. I hope that Miles will listen to what people have been telling him about his responsibilities as a staff member. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 19:59, 15 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
== Something to keep in mind... == | == Something to keep in mind... == | ||
...You might wanna archive this page soon. Just saying. [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan the'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aura Master'''</span>]] 20:58, 14 March 2015 (EDT) | ...You might wanna archive this page soon. Just saying. [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan the'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aura Master'''</span>]] 20:58, 14 March 2015 (EDT) | ||
== What are you doing? == | |||
You have just been involved in a long discussion that you now refuse to comment on, and are debating an issue that was brought multiple times already, and now you are going still revert the changes anyways? And your reason for removing the content was "inapplicable," what kind of bullshit is that? You are truly a terrible, awful admin. Someone who's held this position for over six years should know better than this. Look, if you're not going to comment on the discussion, you do not get to make the decision on the final outcome. How dense and stubborn can you be? What kind of wiki is this where we let [[SW:ADMIN#Administrators are not kings|admins go around doing whatever they want]] with no one being allowed to challenge them? [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 20:44, 17 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
:There is unanimous opposition to your edits by both the administration and the rest of the userbase. Stop assuming you get priority over everyone else. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 20:46, 17 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
::At least tell me that then, instead of saying things like "your edit is inapplicable." When did a pure vote count decide the outcome of things on here anyways? [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 20:48, 17 March 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::I do not assume I have to tell you how to read the discussion you are part of. I assume you are smart enough to realize things like "everybody here disagrees with me". And wikis are not a pure voting-based system, but if there is unanimous consensus aside from one vocal user, that is more than sufficient to come to a conclusion. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 20:51, 17 March 2015 (EDT) | |||