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Forum:Tier list unfarity?: Difference between revisions
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:What are you trying to say there? That you think Marth would be at the top of a tier list in which all players have infinite reaction times? [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 17:24, October 13, 2009 (UTC) | :What are you trying to say there? That you think Marth would be at the top of a tier list in which all players have infinite reaction times? [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 17:24, October 13, 2009 (UTC) | ||
:::Ah ha. This may be where you're going wrong. | |||
:::First off, let this be your formal introduction to the two-headed monster known as SemiHawk, where we double team you with impenetrable walls of text (invariably more intelligent and logically coherent than your own), and you eventually concede because you're only making for what temporarily passes for a point. | |||
:::Now, let's say that you ''do'' set two computers to level infinity, and have them play for an infinite amount of time (which, according to your position, need only to be a one stock game, but let's assume it's three, because that would, to you, make no difference), assuming that's possible, which it isn't. All attacks will '''not''' be blocked or dodged, because characters have a characteristic called [[priority]]. See, when two characters attack at the exact same time, which, in your world of infinite playing time, will eventually happen, those moves usually differ in the value of priority. If both of these attacks are not ranged, which eventually they will be no matter the character given infinite time (plus, grabs are unblockable and given infinite time will not be dodged simply because both characters will at one point attempt to grab each other) then one of these moves will win out. Let's take the obvious example of Snake and Captain Falcon. Captain Falcon has absolutely no priority whatsoever on practically any of his moves. Snake has considerably priority on practically every one of his tilts. Take the scenario of, at some point in this infinite game at infinite skill, Snake using his forward tilt, and Captain Falcon using Raptor boost. Snake will win because of his higher priority, landing a hit. Oh, and all that crap about infinity, I was just playing with you about, because there's no such things as infinite skill. There's no most optimal strategy, there's no best mechanics, there's no infinitely reactive character, none of that. Your hypothetical scenario fails if your assumptions are used, '''and''' your hypothetical scenario is completely invalid for discussions of this sort. | |||
:::Now let's get to the rest of your post. It was for your benefit that I ignored the last part of your post, because you basically embarrassed yourself here. You said tiers don't exist, and then you listed differences between characters. If you'd read my [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|treatise]] you'd have known that small differences can create big imbalances. But that's not even the point here. You're admitting there are imbalances, you're admitting that some characters are better than others. So, sir, I ask you one final time, what is your point? Even in your faulty scenario ''by your own admission'' there is a tier list. So, even under ideal, (read, impossible) conditions, your idea fails. So how do you think that introducing more imperfection can balance the game and eliminate the possibility of tiers? | |||
:::Obviously, it can't. Your next response should prove amusing. [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 17:42, October 13, 2009 (UTC) | |||
All attacks [[would] be blocked by cpus with super-pro-reflexes. Priority dosen't matter if the attack dosen't hit anything! If you are to dumb to think of infinity, think of them at level 9000. And Semi Hawk sounds kiddy. [[User:Tuth|<span style="color: blue;">Tuth the tough Mii</span>]] [[User talk:Tuth|''<span style="color: red;">You got owned!</span>'']] [[Special:Contributions/Tuth|''<span style="color: magenta;">Visit Mint Brick Wiki!</span>'']] | |||
:Honest question: Do you actually read what you type before you post it? [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 19:45, October 13, 2009 (UTC) | |||
::More serious response: deal in the real world. You keep providing these ridiculous hypothetical examples that could never exist in the real world. I'm all for theoretical experiments, but when you refuse to even look at empirical evidence to the contrary, you're thesis loses credibility. Secondly, to say that when the characters are played perfectly they will never hit each other is completely wrong. Imagine (which you've proved you're good at given your unrealistic scenarios and beliefs) that character A attacks, character B dodges. Now, there are scenarios in which A finishes the attack in time to hit B before B can move/dodge, or vis a vis. So basically what I'm saying is that your thought experiment doesn't work, nor do the results it predicts happen in empirical studies. Therefore you fail. Oh, and about the tier list being "unfair," who give a shit. Lot's of things are unfair. It's unfair to me that my personality makes me need to respond to you every time you spout crap. Guess what? It doesn't change the fact that it does. So I can either deal with it and respond to you, or continue to be bothered by it. You can do the same thing with tiers. Either accept that they exist and stop caring about their "fairness" or keep bitching about it. Either way doesn't make a difference to me. Nor does it change what tiers are. [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 19:59, October 13, 2009 (UTC) | |||
::Your insult(s) is/are pointless. Because there is no such thing as a perfect CPU, and there cannot be, your thought experiment is pointless. Respond like that again and you will be banned for trolling. Provide a substantive argument that addresses the relevant points of your opponents, and I'll take a strike off, but right now you're nearing strike three. I'm not kidding. [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 20:56, October 13, 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::Just to clarify before this gets taken the wrong way, you (or anyone else for that matter) won't be banned for actually arguing. But if you continue to ignore other peoples logical arguments while repeatedly asserting yourself without any actual substance, I won't stand in the way of Semi banning you for trolling/disruption. [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 22:01, October 13, 2009 (UTC) | |||
The tiers are for humans not for cpu. We do not know if Ice climbers with a perfect combo and approach technique would win or if Donkeykong if used correctly is invincible but it does not care because smashers have their own techniques and tiers (i believe) are firstly based on statistics and not on what perfect fights would result.----[[User:Zinnamon|NOT Zinnamon]] ([[User talk:Zinnamon|talk]]) 21:26, October 13, 2009 (UTC) | |||
:Zinnamon is right. Look at Marth players on Youtube. Hell, look at some Ken Hoang vids. Does he use counter and basically be impervious to any and all attacks? No. In the matches I've seen, the amount of Counters could be counted with only two hands. Meta Knight just so happens to be top tier becuase of amazing, quick combo moves that deal high collective damage. If we go by your infinite reaction time theory, Marth could counter every one of those moves. GUESS WHAT. Not everyone plays like a harebrained CPU. Any SMART player would take Marth's counter into thinking, and NOTICE WHEN THE MARTH STARTS COUNTERING. Really, all of the higher tiers have quick enough moves to hit Marth after the actual counter frame. There are no infinite reaction times. Falcon is so low because he gets owned by nearly everyone due to even his powerful moves being terrible in terms of priority. What shall be your next amusingly theoretical example?[[User:L33tSilvie|<span style="color:gold;">L33t</span>]] [[User talk:L33tSilvie|<span style="color:silver;">Silvie</span>]] <sup><span style="color:Green;">[[Special:Contributions/L33tSilvie|I see wat u did thar...</span></sup>]] 00:49, October 14, 2009 (UTC) | |||
First things first, Clarinet Hawk has been awarded the Nobel Common Sense Prize. And Tier List unfairity wasn't exactly the best thing to name this disscussion. What about tiers:a lie? Tiers are updated every once in a while, know why? It's because the previous tier wasn't correct. There is about a 98.8888 percent chance that tiers will never be correct, and even then they might be changed to something incorrect. Here's some more common since:If a person who is blind and deaf and about get hit by a car and one person he didn't even know told him it was there, while his many friends who had high places in power told him it wasn't there who would he listen to? His friends. I have decided that it is pointless to get people to understand my stuff just like it is pointless to teach a baby that 1+1=2. So you won't be hearing any more from me on this forum but don't you DARE think that you have won. [[User:Tuth|<span style="color: blue;">Tuth the tough Mii</span>]] [[User talk:Tuth|''<span style="color: red;">You got owned!</span>'']] [[Special:Contributions/Tuth|''<span style="color: magenta;">Visit Mint Brick Wiki!</span>'']] | |||
:Back to my question from before: Do you actually read what you type? And to add to it: If you do, does your IQ drop as many points as mine does when I read this? [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 00:16, October 16, 2009 (UTC) | |||
I'll make this quick: if you'd ''won'', we'd be the ones leaving the forum right now, not you, because you don't have a point, you don't have arguments, and you're being a troll. Another thing: We've not been arguing that the current tier lists are correct; that's a ''completely different discussion''. And also, the back room has less respect than you'd think, and/so your blind person metaphor is silly. Love, [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 15:46, October 15, 2009 (UTC) | |||
"the two-headed monster known as SemiHawk"... Dear God... There will be no escape! Listen "Tuth", if you head ANY sense whatsoever, you might want to consult someone who can... "Argue". Because you have failed miserably at it. '''[[User:Kperfekt722|<span style="color:purple;">Kperfekt</span>]]''' [[User talk:Kperfekt722|<span style="color:red;"><sup>BURN!!!</sup></span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Kperfekt722|<span style="color:yellow;"><sup>Revert That!</sup></span>]] 20:13, October 15, 2009 (UTC) | |||
"There is about a 98.8888 percent chance that tiers will never be correct, and even then they might be changed to something incorrect." You are right in saying that a tier list will never be 100% accurate, but I have an important question for you. Do you know why a tier list changes over time? More importantly, do you even know what a tier list is? Judging from your posts, it seems you don't. [[User:Y462|Y462]] <small>([[User talk:Y462|T]] • [[Special:Contributions/Y462|C]] • [[Special:Editcount/Y462|E]] )</small> 01:34, October 16, 2009 (UTC) | |||
First of all I might as well take back the whole don't you DARE thing because everyone has a right to think they won and I don't want to be blocked for trolling. I came back because my latest post didn't exactly conevy the message i wanted. As I said before, I don't have a problem with tiers exsisting. In fact, as CLarinet Hawk said, it seems ipossible that they can't exsist. (Double Negative) But the problem is more the reason why the tiers change. They change as popular tatics change so if an anit-metaknight technique becomes popular metaknight will got down on the tier list. What I'm trying to say is that tiers are very poor for judging which characters are the best and only tru proffesionals can be good at every character. Finally if I made any mispellings the reason I didn't correct them because this is so long that it is slow on Internet explorer. [[User:Tuth|<span style="color: black;">Tuth the tough Mii</span>]] [[User talk:Tuth|''<span style="color: cyan;">You got owned!</span>'']] [[Special:Contributions/Tuth|''<span style="color: brown;">Visit Mint Brick Wiki!</span>'']] | |||
:You're right about techniques altering the tier list, but you still don't have much of a point. Yes, tiers change because tactics change. What's wrong with that? In the SSBM era when [[wobbling]] was popularized, the Ice Climbers went up the tier list like a shot. Why? Because, using this new technique, it became easier to win. This translated into winning more tournaments, which is one of the primary forces sculpting the tier list. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 16:35, October 19, 2009 (UTC) | |||
== Subject: The new Brawl Tier List is definitly not good. == | |||
What is up with the fourth brawl tier list? I thought the third list was bad, now this! First off, how could Yoshi and Bowser be better than Mario? Mario is faster than bowser and has better agility, and Mario has a better average match-up score (see brawl match-up chart). Also, with Yoshi, he is weaker than Mario. I think Ike is also worse than Mario. Ike has the same problems as bowser. Secondly, Sheik should be way higher. In my opinion, she is on of the best characters, but they placed her in a low tier. Also, their are too many tier groups and Meta Knight has a tier all to himself. That's right, only 1 character in 1 tier! The makers of the tier lists should make it way more accurate, and try to have close to the same number of characters in each tier. Here is how I think the tier list should be: | |||
'''S Tier''' | |||
1. Meta Knight | |||
2. Snake | |||
3. Wario | |||
4. Marth | |||
5. Falco | |||
'''A Tier''' | |||
6. King Dedede | |||
7. Diddy Kong | |||
8. Sheik | |||
9. Zero Suit Samus | |||
10. Pikachu | |||
'''B Tier''' | |||
11. Kirby | |||
12. Donkey Kong | |||
13. Peach | |||
14. Ice Climbers | |||
15. Wolf | |||
16. Sonic | |||
'''C Tier''' | |||
17. Toon Link | |||
18. Mario | |||
19. Mr. Game and Watch | |||
20. Lucario | |||
21. Luigi | |||
22. Fox | |||
'''D Tier''' | |||
23. Zelda | |||
24. Pit | |||
25. R.O.B. | |||
26. Pokemon Trainer | |||
27. Bowser | |||
28. Ike | |||
'''E Tier''' | |||
29. Lucas | |||
30. Ness | |||
31. Samus | |||
32. Captain Falcon | |||
33. Link | |||
'''F Tier''' | |||
34. Yoshi | |||
35. Jigglypuff | |||
36. Olimar | |||
37. Ganondorf | |||
Those people should definitly change the tier list. They should make polls asking smashers who they think is the best character, and then make an accurate tier list according to the results. I hate the new tier list. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:174.54.111.7|174.54.111.7]] ([[User talk:174.54.111.7|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/174.54.111.7|contribs]]) 20:57, February 27, 2010</small> | |||
::"They should make polls asking smashers who they think is the best character, and then make an accurate tier list according to the results." | |||
:That's what they do, in case you don't know. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 21:04, February 27, 2010 (UTC) | |||
::It's significantly more than just a simple poll handed out to all smashers and whoever wins gets the top spot. They look at who wins tournaments and that's how they decide. [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 18:20, March 2, 2010 (UTC) | |||
::Your olimar and zelda positions are odd if that's your actual tier list. Olimar is one of the best regardless of his recovery. Zelda deserves to be in bottom, you can DI out of all of her kill moves and she is incredibly predictable. --[[User:KoRoBeNiKi|KoRoBeNiKi]] ([[User talk:KoRoBeNiKi|talk]]) 21:35, March 2, 2010 (UTC) | |||
::0-0...... Wario isn't that good.Also the whole "polls" thing sounds a little off, some may mistake it for a popularity contest, which was a really big freakin argument just above this heading and Tiers are not just about popularity. Unless of course this was about their skills in battle popularity and not popularity in general........ That Wario is bothering me.[[User:Drakon64|Drakon64]] ([[User talk:Drakon64|talk]]) 09:50, 11 December 2011 (EST) | |||
:::This conversation is over a year old, please do not post in casual forums that are this old. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 12:47, 11 December 2011 (EST) | |||