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User talk:Defiant Elements/Archive 1: Difference between revisions
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== With all due respect... == | == With all due respect... == | ||
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::I lost my temper with you. Not him. He's been civil. I've tried to be civil with him. I may have lost it a little bit with him, but that's overflow frustration from you. I'd apologize to him if I was really jerk to him. I wouldn't really to you, but I don't think you want that. Seriously, guy, you can do whatever you want. I honestly don't care anymore. [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 22:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC) | ::I lost my temper with you. Not him. He's been civil. I've tried to be civil with him. I may have lost it a little bit with him, but that's overflow frustration from you. I'd apologize to him if I was really jerk to him. I wouldn't really to you, but I don't think you want that. Seriously, guy, you can do whatever you want. I honestly don't care anymore. [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 22:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC) | ||
I know this isn't any of my business, but you guys have been making a complicated conversation. I know about the situation you are currently talking about, although you make it sound like you're barely talking about it. Here's what it sounds like you said: | I know this isn't any of my business, but you guys have been making a complicated conversation. I know about the situation you are currently talking about, although you make it sound like you're barely talking about it. Here's what it sounds like you said: [Cult of Personality|CP]] came in, Randall banned ⅓ of them, and now you guys are arguing over it. It sounds too complicated to specifically explain. But you guys sound like that's not even part of this whole situation. Personally, I don't even know who's on who's ''side''. Ok, Semicolon, I take it you're on Randall's side. We'll consider that the ''SmashWiki Sysops'' side. The other side is formed from regular Users, and maybe a couple of Admins, in or out of this Wiki. It's getting too confusing, so somebody explain this in general. I know the whole Randall banning 5 Users-Charitwo unbanned 2 Users problem. '''[[User:MarioGalaxy|<span style="color:Gold">Mario</span><span style="color:Silver">Galaxy</span>]]''' {[[User talk:MarioGalaxy|<span style="color:Gray">talk</span>]]} 21:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC) | ||
:@Semicolon: I've purposefully not referred to any one event as the be all and end all, but is it fair to assume that you're referring to GalaxiaD and his cronies (for lack of a better term), who, from what I understand created and populated the Cult of Personality, used it as the equivalent of a LiveJournal and engaged in general asshattery that contributed little or nothing to SmashWiki? I'm not precisely clear on what warranted the original bans, Randall seems to have had a grudge against 'em for some reason, but I have read the discussion that followed and I'm aware that Randall was cussed out and sent hate mail on at least one occasion by a number of Galaxia's cronies -- not to mention the drama that Galaxia precipitated on his talk page after the fact or the allegations of sockpuppetry. I can keep going if you like, but, as I said, I'm far less concerned about this particular event and far more concerned about the "big picture" (again for lack of a better term). – [[User:Defiant Elements|<font color="black">Defiant Elements</font>]] 21:25, 21 August 2008 (UTC) | :@Semicolon: I've purposefully not referred to any one event as the be all and end all, but is it fair to assume that you're referring to GalaxiaD and his cronies (for lack of a better term), who, from what I understand created and populated the Cult of Personality, used it as the equivalent of a LiveJournal and engaged in general asshattery that contributed little or nothing to SmashWiki? I'm not precisely clear on what warranted the original bans, Randall seems to have had a grudge against 'em for some reason, but I have read the discussion that followed and I'm aware that Randall was cussed out and sent hate mail on at least one occasion by a number of Galaxia's cronies -- not to mention the drama that Galaxia precipitated on his talk page after the fact or the allegations of sockpuppetry. I can keep going if you like, but, as I said, I'm far less concerned about this particular event and far more concerned about the "big picture" (again for lack of a better term). – [[User:Defiant Elements|<font color="black">Defiant Elements</font>]] 21:25, 21 August 2008 (UTC) | ||
::Okay, here's what you missed. Since the months that the kids joined the wiki, they contributed to the content, but they misued several things like talk pages and user pages and the like. Randall was irritated by this, as were all the sysops, but that wasn't grounds to ban them. They just continually reminded them the proper usage of the facilities and pages, some nicer than others, but generally civil. Then, there were some names thrown around from misinterpretated comments (I forgot where, but I could look it up if you needed me to). Then, one of the members of the Cult of Personality made an account on their forum impersonating Randall and proceeded with a character assassination. The other members of the Cult did not know it was one of their own; they thought it was Randall. They got very angry at Randall and proceeded to take it out on him. When it was discovered it was one of their own, and Randall discovered this, things got worse. There were arguements and ad hominem attacks sufficently for what Randall though constituted a ban. While the ban was executed, the banned members continued to harass on talk pages and the attacks got worse, and to an unacceptable level, using language worthy of longer banning. The bans were reinstated/extended. This was done without consultation with the other sysops by Randall. As C-Hawk has said, many of the bans have been removed. There were wrongs on both accounts, but it's over. The problem wasn't the policy, it was the result of a clash between diametrically opposed personalities and conditions, and it happens. I don't understand what this 'big picture' is. I contend it doesn't exist. I don't think you should have made these judgements without knowing the whole story, but at least, provided you read this, you won't be ignorant. If anybody has anything else to add to the story, feel free. I'm pretty sure I may have gotten one or two of the details incorrect or insufficiently explained. And for the record, if having the sysops run again would 'fix the big picture' I'm all for it. [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 22:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC) | ::Okay, here's what you missed. Since the months that the kids joined the wiki, they contributed to the content, but they misued several things like talk pages and user pages and the like. Randall was irritated by this, as were all the sysops, but that wasn't grounds to ban them. They just continually reminded them the proper usage of the facilities and pages, some nicer than others, but generally civil. Then, there were some names thrown around from misinterpretated comments (I forgot where, but I could look it up if you needed me to). Then, one of the members of the Cult of Personality made an account on their forum impersonating Randall and proceeded with a character assassination. The other members of the Cult did not know it was one of their own; they thought it was Randall. They got very angry at Randall and proceeded to take it out on him. When it was discovered it was one of their own, and Randall discovered this, things got worse. There were arguements and ad hominem attacks sufficently for what Randall though constituted a ban. While the ban was executed, the banned members continued to harass on talk pages and the attacks got worse, and to an unacceptable level, using language worthy of longer banning. The bans were reinstated/extended. This was done without consultation with the other sysops by Randall. As C-Hawk has said, many of the bans have been removed. There were wrongs on both accounts, but it's over. The problem wasn't the policy, it was the result of a clash between diametrically opposed personalities and conditions, and it happens. I don't understand what this 'big picture' is. I contend it doesn't exist. I don't think you should have made these judgements without knowing the whole story, but at least, provided you read this, you won't be ignorant. If anybody has anything else to add to the story, feel free. I'm pretty sure I may have gotten one or two of the details incorrect or insufficiently explained. And for the record, if having the sysops run again would 'fix the big picture' I'm all for it. [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 22:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC) | ||
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:You added a line saying "(no attacks...)" which doesn't make much sense, so I reverted your edit. – [[User:Defiant Elements|<font color="black">Defiant Elements</font>]] 04:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | :You added a line saying "(no attacks...)" which doesn't make much sense, so I reverted your edit. – [[User:Defiant Elements|<font color="black">Defiant Elements</font>]] 04:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | ||
== [[:Image:Hidden04 080220d.jpg | == [[:Image:Hidden04 080220d.jpg] == | ||
What are you trying to do? :P --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">[[User:Shadowcrest|<font color="Steelblue">Shadow</font>]][[User talk:Shadowcrest|<font color="Steelblue">crest</font>]]</font> 21:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | What are you trying to do? :P --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">[[User:Shadowcrest|<font color="Steelblue">Shadow</font>]][[User talk:Shadowcrest|<font color="Steelblue">crest</font>]]</font> 21:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | ||
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== Vandalism == | == Vandalism == | ||
I'LL VANDALIZE ALL I WANT, YOU CAN'T STOP ME!!!! YOU SHOULD BE BANNED! [[User:ParaGoomba348 Is Horrible|ParaGoomba348 Is Horrible]] ([[User talk:ParaGoomba348 Is Horrible|talk]]) 23:51, 28 November 2008 (UTC) | <s>I'LL VANDALIZE ALL I WANT, YOU CAN'T STOP ME!!!! YOU SHOULD BE BANNED! [[User:ParaGoomba348 Is Horrible|ParaGoomba348 Is Horrible]] ([[User talk:ParaGoomba348 Is Horrible|talk]]) 23:51, 28 November 2008 (UTC)</s> | ||
== olo == | == olo == | ||
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Is that you? <span style="border:2px outset red;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:Blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 04:57, 30 December 2008 (UTC) | Is that you? <span style="border:2px outset red;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:Blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 04:57, 30 December 2008 (UTC) | ||
:...? – [[User:Defiant Elements|<font color="black">Defiant Elements</font>]] [[user talk:Defiant Elements|<font color=black><small>''+talk''</small></font>]] 05:04, 30 December 2008 (UTC) | :...? – [[User:Defiant Elements|<font color="black">Defiant Elements</font>]] [[user talk:Defiant Elements|<font color=black><small>''+talk''</small></font>]] 05:04, 30 December 2008 (UTC) | ||
== User:Zixor == | |||
Hey; I found it important that I tell you how impressed I am with you, based on very little. It seems like very few people here (especially admins) have any interest in properly addressing others' viewpoints. It doesn't take much really; as long as you don't quickly bark out your opinions as fact (which is more or less ignoring the person all together). | |||
Anyway, I just found it to be very refreshing, thanks. | |||
-Oh, and; obviously, I'd like to Brawl you; if you do that sort of thing. ; ) [[User:Zixor|Zixor]] ([[User talk:Zixor|talk]]) 23:11, 17 January 2009 (UTC) | |||
:Hey, I'd really appreciate it if you could help me out with any input at all on how to properly argue with CHawk. I'm very inexperienced with these kinds of things, and I seem to be getting nowhere, as my specific comments remain unaddressed. It doesn't need to relate specifically to this issue; I'm just really lost on how to effectively help people understand my viewpoints, to implement anything. -I've had no luck in this field for several years, so I've become quite depressed about it. Anything you could tell me would really help a lot. Thanks very much. [[User:Zixor|Zixor]] ([[User talk:Zixor|talk]]) 23:34, 18 January 2009 (UTC) | |||
::I'm not sure what to tell you really. I 'spose I can try to offer you some general advice, though I'm honestly not sure how applicable any of this is to you having only read a mere handful of your posts. First off, do your utmost to disallow yourself from becoming emotionally invested in the argument at hand; once you stop being detached, you generally stop employing rational arguments and things have a way of getting out of hand very, very quickly. Second off (and this is really a corollary to the first point) you might wanna learn how to (or hone your ability to) construct what you might call a "logical argument;" in my experience, the people able to "get things done" tend to be the same people who use such arguments. It seems self-evident, I know, but it never ceases to amaze me how many people are utterly incapable of crafting sound arguments. The key to any logical argument (aside from avoiding logical fallacies, of course -- ad hominems, appeals to emotion, and red herrings are particularly common, in my experience; see the link on my user page under "References" if you don't know what those are) is to be methodical. Begin by outlining your premise(s), follow those up with inferences, being sure to demonstrate exactly the manner by which those inferences follow from your premises, and, finally, draw a conclusion. People can deny your premise, or dispute the validity of your inferences, but it's very difficult to assail a conclusion drawn from such an argument as long as you make it clear how each individual point follows from the last. When you're addressing a counter-argument, dissect the argument point-by-point, demonstrating why each individual claim is invalid/illogical. This is the kind of thing that really only comes with experience, but the ability to create a valid argument is damn near priceless. Third off, try to refrain from employing the same argument time and time again/re-visiting points when it's clear that the argument has run its course/that you've reached an impasse that you're unlikely to resolve. Of course, it doesn't hurt to be well-written, either, but these are really the only things I can think to tell you. | |||
::As to CHawk, I'm afraid I can't really help you. Fact is that I agree with CHawk that a) when it comes to serious, competitive play, "cheap" is, at best, irrelevant, and b) that the sentence that you described on his talk page doesn't belong on the page for the glitch, even if I agree with you, in the abstract sense, at least, that the glitch is unfair. Frankly, I think you're unlikely to gain much if any ground in that argument, not only because I think he's right, but also because I don't think that it's a point that either of you are willing to concede/you're both convinced that you're right, besides which, CHawk is, to be perfectly honest, better at this kinda thing (arguing, I mean). Please note, I'm not trying to dissuade you from arguing with him on this issue or any other issue that you feel strongly about -- in fact, I would encourage you to argue issues about which you feel strongly -- I'm merely explaining why I can't help much. | |||
::Sorry I couldn't be of more help :/ (and I apologize in advance for any poor grammar, etc., it's 1:30 am and I'm rather tired). Oh, and if you ever wanna Brawl me, leave a note on my talk page when it looks like I'm online and we'll see about Brawling. – [[User:Defiant Elements|<font color="black">Defiant Elements</font>]] [[user talk:Defiant Elements|<font color=black><small>''+talk''</small></font>]] 06:26, 19 January 2009 (UTC) | |||
Thanks for your input; I'll try to do the best I can. | |||
I have to say that my biggest problem with conversation is that people seem utterly unwilling to even acknowledge the things I say; no matter how clearly I state them (or ask them to directly), or how many different ways I put them, or different arguments I try. They just stick to their guns; coming up with point after point. | |||
I try to address as many as possible, but this will (inevitably) grow out of control and off focus. | |||
I try to argue the way I want to be argued against: fair, kind, considerate. I also try any number of tactics to argue ''their'' way, in order to find a place that they understand. I try and try and try. I listen to the things they say and I tell them directly whether or not I agree with them, and why (with examples); but nothing ever gets through. I don't know why. | |||
I really and truly am completely willing to be proven wrong, to change my opinion, and relent. All I want is what's best, whether I was "right or wrong". I want to see things from their view; but I just can seem to get people to see things from anything but their own, no matter what. | |||
---As for Brawling; I find it ineffective to schedule matches without some kind of IM client (which I currently do not have), so my technique has simply been to add people to my friend roster, and run into them randomly on WFC. -My FC is on my user page, what's yours? [[User:Zixor|Zixor]] ([[User talk:Zixor|talk]]) 20:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC) | |||
:It's on my user page, but, for your convenience, 2492-3872-8047. However, I'm very, very rarely simply on WFC randomly, so the likelihood of running into me by chance is quite low. – [[User:Defiant Elements|<font color="black">Defiant Elements</font>]] [[user talk:Defiant Elements|<font color=black><small>''+talk''</small></font>]] 20:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC) | |||
Do you use any IM client? [[User:Zixor|Zixor]] ([[User talk:Zixor|talk]]) 05:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC) | |||
:Ah, MSN. Ok, I've added your SN, but I'm not sure if it recognizes you or not. If you want to, add me and IM me. I'm zixor69 (AIM), or marcilju (MSN). [[User:Zixor|Zixor]] ([[User talk:Zixor|talk]]) 06:55, 2 February 2009 (UTC) | |||
-Just renewing my interest; thanks. [[User:Zixor|Zixor]] ([[User talk:Zixor|talk]]) 23:41, 5 February 2009 (UTC) | |||
:I'm available for the next hour or so if you wanna Brawl now. – [[User:Defiant Elements|<font color="black">Defiant Elements</font>]] [[user talk:Defiant Elements|<font color=black><small>''+talk''</small></font>]] 23:55, 5 February 2009 (UTC) | |||
I do. I'll sign on now. Are you on MSN? | |||
:I am now. – [[User:Defiant Elements|<font color="black">Defiant Elements</font>]] [[user talk:Defiant Elements|<font color=black><small>''+talk''</small></font>]] 00:03, 6 February 2009 (UTC) | |||
== Blue Ninjakoopa == | |||
I really hate to barge in, but that was a lot of text. Would you like to Brawl me sometime? '''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="background:#000000;color:#99ffff">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''<sup>[[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="vertical-align:baseline;position:relative;bottom:0.36em;color:#0099ff">Talk</span>]]</sup> 10:16, 19 January 2009 (UTC) | |||
:Uhhh sure... if you'd like to. – [[User:Defiant Elements|<font color="black">Defiant Elements</font>]] [[user talk:Defiant Elements|<font color=black><small>''+talk''</small></font>]] 19:14, 19 January 2009 (UTC) | |||
:I'll probably be around a good bit tomorrow if you're free to Brawl. – [[User:Defiant Elements|<font color="black">Defiant Elements</font>]] [[user talk:Defiant Elements|<font color=black><small>''+talk''</small></font>]] 23:21, 19 January 2009 (UTC) | |||
::Sorry I'm late. I've registered you. '''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="background:#000000;color:#99ffff">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''<sup>[[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="vertical-align:baseline;position:relative;bottom:0.36em;color:#0099ff">Talk</span>]]</sup> 21:27, 23 January 2009 (UTC) | |||
== User:Lilwhisian == | |||
ty when i get home to my wii we should brawl it up :) <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Lilwhisian|Lilwhisian]] ([[User talk:Lilwhisian|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lilwhisian|contribs]]) </small> | |||
ok mines is 2750-5224-6162 <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Lilwhisian|Lilwhisian]] ([[User talk:Lilwhisian|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lilwhisian|contribs]]) </small> | |||
Yes, Mr. Awesome is the smae as smashman4 <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Mr. Awesome|Mr. Awesome]] ([[User talk:Mr. Awesome|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Mr. Awesome|contribs]]) </small> | |||
== whoaaaaaaa == | |||
Wow, that was just what I needed. Thank you. =) I can't believe I haven't tried that already, I was just being paranoid, thinking that going to the user would be the answer. I'm sorry if you see me as a bad person, and I want to thank you again for the advice. From now on, that's what I'll do. Do you think there could be a "You're not a target" policy? I've got one, but it's moreso about my experiences than anything else. It's copied onto word. About the admins: TBH, the only Admins I feel comfortable going to are Shadowcrest and Miles (and sometimes Sky), and they all think C. Hawk is okay. I feel that I annoy the rest. :( '''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="background:#000000;color:#99ffff">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''<sup>[[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="vertical-align:baseline;position:relative;bottom:0.36em;color:#0099ff">Talk</span>]]</sup> 00:15, 1 February 2009 (UTC) | |||
:You're welcome. I don't think you're a bad person. I think that a number of your actions show poor judgment, but hey, there are very, very few people who aren't guilty of having lost sight of things every once in a while, myself included. I'm not sure what you mean by a "You're not a target" policy, so I really couldn't say -- if I had to guess, I'd say it sounds like the type of thing that belongs as a WikiEssay or maybe a Guideline, but probably not a policy. As far as the admins are concerned, if you really think that's the case and you find yourself being baited or harassed, tell Shadow or Miles; simple enough. – [[User:Defiant Elements|<font color="black">Defiant Elements</font>]] [[user talk:Defiant Elements|<font color=black><small>''+talk''</small></font>]] 00:23, 1 February 2009 (UTC) | |||
::The target policy would kinda make me look like a hypocrite, as it would state that the admins aren't out to get you. You know, a lot of users here seem to think that you're an alternate account for Shadowcrest. It's amazing; they accuse you of sockpuppetry because you have a great mind like he does. :( Yeah, guideline sounds better for it. By the way, I've registered you for Brawl. Whenever you're ready, we can play a few rounds. '''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="background:#000000;color:#99ffff">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''<sup>[[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="vertical-align:baseline;position:relative;bottom:0.36em;color:#0099ff">Talk</span>]]</sup> 20:05, 1 February 2009 (UTC) | |||
==Hey== | |||
(Whines At The Repetitiveness Of Writing These) I'm trying to make peace with everyone in the Wiki, so if I have been over the top in an arguement with you (or bashed, etc.) then I am sorry. [[User:Kperfekt722|<span style="color:red;">Kperfekt722</span>]] [[User talk:Kperfekt722|These Rules Are Stupid]] 23:51, 2 February 2009 (UTC) | |||
== Sheepish grin == | |||
I was tagging them for deletion and forgot to clear the page... yeah, I'll go over them once again. </sheepish grin> <font face="calibri">'''[[User:Fried beef1|<font color="pink">Fried</font><font color="hotpink">beef</font><font color="crimson">1</font>]] [[User talk:Fried beef1|<span style="color:lightpink"><span style="font-size: 60%">Love</span></span>]]'''</font> 22:19, 5 February 2009 (UTC) | |||
:OK, thanks. <font face="calibri">'''[[User:Fried beef1|<font color="pink">Fried</font><font color="hotpink">beef</font><font color="crimson">1</font>]] [[User talk:Fried beef1|<span style="color:lightpink"><span style="font-size: 60%">Love</span></span>]]'''</font> 22:25, 5 February 2009 (UTC) | |||
== Archive == | |||
You probably need to archive soon. Would you like me to take care of it? '''[[User:Gutripper|<span style="color:orange">Gutripper</span>]][[User Talk:Gutripper|<small><sup><span style="color:Black">Speak</span></sup></small>]]''' | |||