Ice Climbers (SSBU): Difference between revisions

Continuing to improve/elaborate on this page...
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The Ice Climbers are once again voiced by Sanae Kobayashi, with her portrayals from ''[[Super Smash Bros. Melee]]'' and ''[[Super Smash Bros. Brawl]]'' being repurposed for ''Ultimate''.
The Ice Climbers are once again voiced by Sanae Kobayashi, with her portrayals from ''[[Super Smash Bros. Melee]]'' and ''[[Super Smash Bros. Brawl]]'' being repurposed for ''Ultimate''.


The Ice Climbers are ranked 51st out of 82 on the tier list, putting them at the top of the C+ tier. This is an extreme drop from their 2nd out of 38 ranking in ''Brawl'', and is their worst placement in the series by far.
The Ice Climbers are ranked 51st out of 82 on the tier list, putting them at the top of the C+ tier. This is an extreme drop from their 2nd out of 38 ranking in ''Brawl'', and is their worst placement in the series by far. The Ice Climbers serve as an unconventional take on a fighter that excels at close-quarters combat. With some of the highest damage output of the entire cast, both in terms of raw power and combo abilities, alongside solid frame data across the board allowing them to take on an aggressive playstyle in spite of their poor mobility. While able to cause devastating damage with unique techniques or simple bread-and-butter combos, the Climbers aren't too susceptible to combos themselves. Their short stature and low falling speed make stringing attacks against them difficult, which is further compounded by the partner climber being capable of disrupting combo attempts by their opponent. The partner climber causing hitlag upon shielding or taking an attack can open windows of opportunity in a would-be unfavorable situation for the duo, as well as giving them more leeway with an otherwise mediocre out-of-shield game. These quirks allow the Ice Climbers to become an incredibly threatening character with a very unforgiving advantage state and punish game if their opponent is unable to KO the partner climber quickly.
 
Despite all their strengths, the Ice Climbers have a few glaring flaws, mainly coming from the vulnerability of the partner Ice Climber and the loss of a few important tools between the transition from Brawl to Ultimate. While they boast incredible damage output and KO potential, it becomes heavily diminished if the partner is KO'd, and the fact that the partner takes more damage and knockback further compounds this problem. When separated, the AI guides the partner back to the leader and deprioritizes most attempts to defend themselves from any threats. When the leader is grabbed by an opponent, the partner will act shocked or scared and usually can't attack until the leader has escaped or been thrown, which makes previously near-guaranteed grab escapes far less reliable. The partner also has their own hidden percentage that racks up separately of the leader's and can make it easy for an opponent to KO them first. Because of this, it is important for the leader to hurry back to the partner to make an attempt at either defending them or punishing their attacker, though this can potentially lead the leader into dangerous situations as well. Their main recovery methods, Belay and Squall Hammer, are also drastically weakened if the partner is KO'd during the stock, losing a great deal of distance to the point that Squall Hammer no longer provides any height and Belay becomes nearly useless. (whereas with both Ice Climbers they are excellent recovery moves).
 
Overall, the Ice Climbers' strengths almost certainly outweigh their weaknesses, but they are still commonly seen as a shell of their former selves, and lack the representation needed to make their near-limitless potential a mainstream presence in competitive play.


==How to unlock==
==How to unlock==
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The Ice Climbers are a pair of [[weight|middleweight]]s, (weighing the same as {{SSBU|Lucario}}, {{SSBU|Wolf}}, {{SSBU|Villager}}, {{SSBU|Mythra}}, and {{SSBU|Steve}}), with a moderately short height, above average [[jump]]s, below average [[air speed]] and [[air acceleration]], with low [[gravity]] and slow [[falling speed]]. Unique to a majority of the roster, they are the archetypical tag team fighters, though each Climber is a unique character in their own right. The partner (Nana by default) is controlled by a CPU and mimics what the leader (Popo by default) does with a seven frame delay. As such, the player is essentially controlling two characters at the same time with slight tweaks; the partner has slightly higher mobility attributes, they will deal less damage, receive more damage, and are knocked back farther than the leader. When separated, the partner's AI takes control over their movement, and guides them back to the leader, ignoring most opponents in their path. While one Ice Climber deals underwhelming damage on their own, the two's power combined can make them very formidable.
The Ice Climbers are a pair of [[weight|middleweight]]s, (weighing the same as {{SSBU|Lucario}}, {{SSBU|Wolf}}, {{SSBU|Villager}}, {{SSBU|Mythra}}, and {{SSBU|Steve}}), with a moderately short height, above average [[jump]]s, below average [[air speed]] and [[air acceleration]], with low [[gravity]] and slow [[falling speed]]. Unique to a majority of the roster, they are the archetypical tag team fighters, though each Climber is a unique character in their own right. The partner (Nana by default) is controlled by a CPU and mimics what the leader (Popo by default) does with a seven frame delay. As such, the player is essentially controlling two characters at the same time with slight tweaks; the partner has slightly higher mobility attributes, they will deal less damage, receive more damage, and are knocked back farther than the leader. When separated, the partner's AI takes control over their movement, and guides them back to the leader, ignoring most opponents in their path. While one Ice Climber deals underwhelming damage on their own, the two's power combined can make them very formidable.


Most of the Ice Climbers' grounded moveset is fairly quick and disjointed, allowing for versatile use. Their [[neutral attack]] is fast, hits twice, and launches at a low angle, making this attack fairly good at guaranteeing follow-ups at lower percentages, giving the duo a reliable stun-lock, and allowing the Ice Climbers a quick option to keep opponents away from them. [[Forward tilt]] has impressive knockback growth, and can 2-frame and KO fellow middleweights at about 135%. [[Up tilt]] is short ranged, but one of the Ice Climbers' most useful moves, hitting multiple times with low knockback and dealing excellent damage. It also allows for a direct chain into a series of [[up aerial]]s until about 115%, making it paramount in initiating combos and kill confirms. [[Down tilt]] is one of their quickest grounded moves, acting as a strong semi-spike at high percentages, and making follow-ups into [[dash attack]] or similar very easy. Dash attack starts off moderately slow, but sends opponents above the leader for quick transitions into Up aerials, similarly to up tilt. However, it has very low knockback growth, making it only useful in starting aerial combos.
Most of the Ice Climbers' grounded moveset is fairly quick and disjointed, allowing for versatile use. Their [[Forward tilt]] has impressive knockback growth, and can 2-frame and KO fellow middleweights at about 135%. [[Up tilt]] is short ranged, but one of the Ice Climbers' most useful moves, hitting multiple times with low knockback and dealing excellent damage. It also allows for a direct chain into a series of [[up aerial]]s until about 115%, making it paramount in initiating combos and kill confirms. [[Down tilt]] is one of their quickest grounded moves, acting as a strong semi-spike at high percentages, and making follow-ups into tech-chases or edgeguards very easy. Dash attack sends opponents above the leader for quick transitions into Up aerials, similarly to up tilt. However, it has very low knockback growth, making it only useful in starting aerial combos.


Complimenting their tilts, the Ice Climbers' [[smash attacks]] are also very useful and excellent KO options. [[Forward smash]] is the duo's strongest smash, dealing impressive damage despite it's quick speed, and respectable knockback even at lower percentages, reliably KOing at about 70% at edge of the stage. [[Up smash]] is similarly powerful, sending opponents flying quite early, but is particularly slower in it's start-up and ending, making it situational. It hits in a wide area directly above the Ice Climbers, and can KO at about 120%. [[Down smash]] is the fastest of the 3 and launches opponents at a diagonal angle, and is the weakest of the duo's smash attacks. Each Climber swings in one direction, allowing this move to catch rolls and surprise opponents who may be approaching from behind. However, if only the leader is currently on stage, they become vulnerable to rolls due to the lack of a hitbox from behind.
Complimenting their tilts, the Ice Climbers' [[smash attacks]] are also very useful and excellent KO options. [[Forward smash]] is the duo's strongest smash, dealing impressive damage despite it's quick speed, and respectable knockback even at lower percentages, reliably KOing at about 70% at edge of the stage. [[Up smash]] is similarly powerful, but is slower in its start-up and ending. It hits in a wide area directly above the Ice Climbers, and can KO at about 120%. [[Down smash]] is the fastest but also the weakest of the duo's smash attacks. Each Climber swings in one direction, and can even catch large targets with both hits, but if only the leader is currently on stage, they become vulnerable to rolls due to the lack of a hitbox from behind.


The Ice Climbers' aerials are all strong options and are the basis of most of their combos. [[Neutral aerial]] is short ranged, and has weak knockback, but is also quick to start, very safe, highly damaging, and has a long-lasting hitbox, making it a threatening combo and [[gimp]]ing tool. [[Forward aerial]] is a disjointed hammer swing, which is slow and deceptively inactive, but deals immense damage and is one of the safest air attacks in the game. The partner's version of the move has a sweetspot with a very strong spike that can net a KO impressively early if used at mid percentages, and acts as the Ice Climbers' deadliest [[edgeguard]]ing tool. [[Back aerial]] is an exeedingly  useful move for its quickness, large, disjointed hitbox, incredible safety, and staggering power. Up aerial is one of their best moves for a variety of scenarios. The move has excellent combo and juggling capabilities at low percent, and KO's most opponents at around 110-125% when used out of a [[down throw]]. [[Down aerial]] is a [[stall-then-fall]] that while risky to use, has respectable payoff for landing both on or off the stage, and even offers some combo potential when autocanceled.
The Ice Climbers' aerials are all strong options and are the basis of most of their combos. [[Neutral aerial]] is short ranged, and has weak knockback, but is also quick to start, very safe, fairly damaging, and has a long-lasting hitbox, making it a threatening combo and [[gimp]]ing tool. [[Forward aerial]] is a disjointed hammer swing, which is slow and deceptively inactive, but deals immense damage and is one of the safest air attacks in the game. The partner's version of the move has a sweetspot with a very strong spike that can net a KO impressively early if used at mid percentages, and acts as the Ice Climbers' deadliest [[edgeguard]]ing tool. [[Back aerial]] is an exeedingly  useful move for its quickness, large, disjointed hitbox, incredible safety, and staggering power. Up aerial is one of their best moves for a variety of scenarios. The move has excellent combo and juggling capabilities at low percent, and KO's most opponents at around 110-125% when used out of a [[down throw]]. [[Down aerial]] is a [[stall-then-fall]] that while risky to use, has respectable payoff for landing both on or off the stage, and even offers some combo potential when autocanceled.


The Ice Climbers' [[special]]s all have versatile uses. [[Neutral special]] has the duo each create a slab of ice that slides across the stage, shrinking as they melt. Unlike most projectiles, the ice acts more like a [[container]] or [[soccer ball]] in that the incoming projectile is completely tangible, allowing the Ice Climbers to counter some projectile spam playstyles more easily. At extremely high percents it can also freeze opponents, allowing use of setups or reads. If attacked with a strong enough attack, the projectile's ownership will change, allowing it to harm the Ice Climbers if collided with. Their [[side special]], [[Squall Hammer]], is a very respectable move for racking up damage and is relatively safe on shield or cross-ups. With continued presses, the attack can also be used for recovery purposes, which puts them into a [[helpless]] state. It is also one of the easiest desync methods available to the player. [[Up special]], [[Belay]], covers an excellent distance, the partner Climber is completely intangible until pulling up the leader, and auto-grabs any ledges within range. The leader also has a very situational, but strong hitbox on the way up, allowing for a KO from the top blast zones, or a means to apply extra damage at the end of an aerial combo. Finally, down special, [[Blizzard]], is a slow, read-based punish tool that freezes opponents in their tracks and deals huge amounts of damage at point blank range. Using the attack while an enemy is already frozen increases the freeze time slightly and can allow the duo to make space between them and their opponent if need be, or tack on extra damage while frozen. Specifically, this move is very useful when near the ledge, as freezing an opponent near the edges of a stage can make it easy to nudge them off without any means to escape. It also has priority over some other projectiles and can cancel them if the two collide. Overall, the duo's specials are all useful in various situations and can help to create openings for additional combos or surprise KO's.
The Ice Climbers' [[special]]s all have versatile uses. [[Neutral special]] has the duo each create a slab of ice that slides across the stage, shrinking as they melt. Unlike most projectiles, the ice acts more like a [[container]] or [[soccer ball]] in that the incoming projectile is completely tangible, allowing the Ice Climbers to counter some projectile spam playstyles more easily. At extremely high percents it can also freeze opponents, allowing use of setups or reads. If attacked with a strong enough attack, the projectile's ownership will change, allowing it to harm the Ice Climbers if collided with. Their [[side special]], [[Squall Hammer]], is a very respectable move for racking up damage and is relatively safe on shield or cross-ups. With continued presses, the attack can also be used for recovery purposes, which puts them into a [[helpless]] state. It is also one of the easiest desync methods available to the player. [[Up special]], [[Belay]], covers an excellent distance, the partner Climber is completely intangible until pulling up the leader, and auto-grabs any ledges within range. The leader also has a very situational, but strong hitbox on the way up, allowing for a KO from the top blast zones, or a means to apply extra damage at the end of an aerial combo. Finally, down special, [[Blizzard]], is a slow, read-based punish tool that freezes opponents in their tracks and deals huge amounts of damage at point blank range. Using the attack while an enemy is already frozen increases the freeze time slightly and can allow the duo to make space between them and their opponent if need be, or tack on extra damage while frozen. Specifically, this move is very useful when near the ledge, as freezing an opponent near the edges of a stage can make it easy to nudge them off without any means to escape. It also has priority over some other projectiles and can cancel them if the two collide. Overall, the duo's specials are all useful in various situations and can help to create openings for additional combos or surprise KO's.
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The removal of [[chain grab]]s (and by extension, [[wobbling]]) means that the duo's [[grab]] game has become more situational and in-line with the rest of the roster, limiting it's effectiveness. However, while it is not as potent as it once was, the Ice Climber's grab game is still respectable. The Ice Climber's grab itself has been vastly changed. For starters, only the leader grabs opponents, while the partner cheers. This means that the duo can no longer grab more than one opponent at a time. Additionally, the Ice Climber's grab is the shortest ranged grab in the game, making it risky to attempt to grab in the first place. [[Forward throw]] is a basic throw that has moderately strong base knockback and causes [[tumble]] from 0%, which allows it to open options for a tech chase. Back throw has very strong base knockback, while it's knockback scaling has been decreased, making it difficult to use in either combos or as a KO option, but useful in desyncs. [[Up throw]] is similar, in which it has very limited uses, but notably allows quick access to juggling with up aerial. [[Down throw]] is by far the duo's best throw. It's main use is to initiate aerial combos, desync combos, and juggles, all of which can be devastating. The Ice Climbers' neutral, forward, back, and up aerials can all be used for combos out of down throw and the opponent's placement in air can make it difficult for them to escape from a combo once it has been started, especially if desynced.
The removal of [[chain grab]]s (and by extension, [[wobbling]]) means that the duo's [[grab]] game has become more situational and in-line with the rest of the roster, limiting it's effectiveness. However, while it is not as potent as it once was, the Ice Climber's grab game is still respectable. The Ice Climber's grab itself has been vastly changed. For starters, only the leader grabs opponents, while the partner cheers. This means that the duo can no longer grab more than one opponent at a time. Additionally, the Ice Climber's grab is the shortest ranged grab in the game, making it risky to attempt to grab in the first place. [[Forward throw]] is a basic throw that has moderately strong base knockback and causes [[tumble]] from 0%, which allows it to open options for a tech chase. Back throw has very strong base knockback, while it's knockback scaling has been decreased, making it difficult to use in either combos or as a KO option, but useful in desyncs. [[Up throw]] is similar, in which it has very limited uses, but notably allows quick access to juggling with up aerial. [[Down throw]] is by far the duo's best throw. It's main use is to initiate aerial combos, desync combos, and juggles, all of which can be devastating. The Ice Climbers' neutral, forward, back, and up aerials can all be used for combos out of down throw and the opponent's placement in air can make it difficult for them to escape from a combo once it has been started, especially if desynced.
Despite all their strengths, the Ice Climbers have a few glaring flaws, mainly coming from the vulnerability of the partner Ice Climber and the loss of a few important tools between the transition from ''Brawl'' to ''Ultimate''. While they boast incredible damage output and KO potential, it becomes heavily diminished if the partner is KO'd, and the fact that the partner takes more damage and knockback further compounds this problem. When separated, the AI guides the partner back to the leader and deprioritizes most attempts to defend themselves from any threats. When the leader is grabbed by an opponent, the partner will act shocked or scared and cannot attack until the leader has escaped or been thrown, which makes previously near-guaranteed grab escapes far less reliable. The partner also has their own hidden percentage that racks up separately of the leader's and can make it easy for an opponent to KO them first. Because of this, it is important for the leader to hurry back to the partner in an attempt at defending them, though this can potentially lead the leader into dangerous situations as well. Their main recovery method, Belay, is also drastically weakened if the partner is KO'd during the stock, becoming practically useless and Squall Hammer losing a good deal of distance (whereas with both Ice Climbers they are amazing recovery moves).


Barring their situational projectile from Ice Shot, the Ice Climbers have no reliable projectile and can be easily camped out or their projectiles turned against them. The range of their moves is not great—despite being disjointed, their hammers' range can still come up short and can make for some bad matchups, specifically against the likes of {{SSBU|Marth}} or {{SSBU|Sephiroth}}, while Blizzard's range has been nerfed significantly and is dangerous to use liberally. Arguably, the changes that hurt the Ice Climbers most are the changes to grab mechanics in ''Ultimate''. The added period of grab intangibility between grabs and the partner's lack of a grab makes the Ice Climbers' previously most potent tool, chain grabbing, nearly impossible. This significantly impedes their cheesing ability compared to ''Brawl'' or ''Melee'' and makes getting a stock off of a single grab much harder. Desyncing in itself can also have it's own drawbacks. An accidental desync off of up tilt or down throw may make it more difficult to follow-up with the duo's combos, or can even cause the partner's attack to miss entirely, hindering the duo's damage-racking capabilities. Desyncing can also leave the partner Ice Climber vulnerable because of the increase in reaction time between the leader and the partner; in particular, abilities such as [[dodging]], and jumping are significantly delayed, giving the opponent ample time to counterattack if properly read. They also retain most of the flaws that plagued them in ''Brawl'' and ''Melee'', such as the difficulty in keeping the partner alive, severe handicaps when the partner is gone, sluggish aerial mobility, and susceptibility to camping, with the former issue being further pronounced as well.
Barring their situational projectile from Ice Shot, the Ice Climbers have no reliable projectile and can be easily camped out or their projectiles turned against them. The range of their moves is not great—despite being disjointed, their hammers' range can still come up short and can make for some bad matchups, specifically against the likes of {{SSBU|Marth}} or {{SSBU|Sephiroth}}, while Blizzard's range has been nerfed significantly and is dangerous to use liberally. Arguably, the changes that hurt the Ice Climbers most are the changes to grab mechanics in ''Ultimate''. The added period of grab intangibility between grabs and the partner's lack of a grab makes the Ice Climbers' previously most potent tool, chain grabbing, nearly impossible. This significantly impedes their cheesing ability compared to ''Brawl'' or ''Melee'' and makes getting a stock off of a single grab much harder. Desyncing in itself can also have it's own drawbacks. An accidental desync off of up tilt or down throw may make it more difficult to follow-up with the duo's combos, or can even cause the partner's attack to miss entirely, hindering the duo's damage-racking capabilities. Desyncing can also leave the partner Ice Climber vulnerable because of the increase in reaction time between the leader and the partner; in particular, abilities such as [[dodging]], and jumping are significantly delayed, giving the opponent ample time to counterattack if properly read. They also retain most of the flaws that plagued them in ''Brawl'' and ''Melee'', such as the difficulty in keeping the partner alive, severe handicaps when the partner is gone, sluggish aerial mobility, and susceptibility to camping, with the former issue being further pronounced as well.
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The Ice Climbers were previously infamous for having some of (if not) the most powerful damage racking capabilities thanks to [[wobbling]] in ''Melee'' and infinite [[chain grab]]s in ''Brawl'', with these even allowing them to achieve a KO from them. Most likely owing to this, the Ice Climbers were drastically nerfed in the transition from ''Brawl'' to ''Ultimate''.
The Ice Climbers were previously infamous for having some of (if not) the most powerful damage racking capabilities thanks to [[wobbling]] in ''Melee'' and infinite [[chain grab]]s in ''Brawl'', with these even allowing them to achieve a KO from them. Most likely owing to this, the Ice Climbers were drastically nerfed in the transition from ''Brawl'' to ''Ultimate''.


The Ice Climbers' grab game was significantly impacted the most; the partner climber can no longer grab the opponent or act when the leader is grabbed or throwing someone (except when in the air). This dramatically changes the way their combo game works, as it removes the Climbers' extremely powerful chain grabs they were capable of, instead forcing them to rely on [[desynching]] in order to combo the opponent. Moreover, the leader's grabs have noticeably more startup and ending lag, and much less range, now being the shortest grabs in the game.
The Ice Climbers' grab game was impacted the most; the partner climber can no longer grab the opponent or act when the leader is grabbed or throwing someone (except when in the air). This dramatically changes the way their combo game works, as it removes the Climbers' extremely powerful chain grabs they were capable of, instead forcing them to rely on [[desynching]] or bread-and-butter strings in order to combo the opponent. Moreover, the leader's grabs have noticeably more startup and ending lag, and much less range, now being the shortest grabs in the game.


Outside of this, the base damage output on many of their moves has decreased and many of their attacks connect less reliably when they are together due to reduced [[hitlag]]. The partner climber is also launched much easier than the leader due to taking increased damage and knockback from attacks, and the [[AI]]'s intelligence has been reduced leading to more likely self-destructs, making it harder for each of them to stay together. The partner climber also no longer performs [[Blizzard]] behind the leader when used on the ground, and the move itself is less effective as a spacing tool due to its lack of knockback at max range. Finally, due to changes in [[Belay]]'s hitboxes, the move can gain significantly less height if the hitbox is out prioritized, and its overall size is smaller, making it harder to connect against grounded opponents.
Outside of this, the base damage output on many of their moves has decreased and many of their attacks connect less reliably when they are together due to reduced [[hitlag]]. The partner climber is also launched much easier than the leader due to taking increased damage and knockback from attacks, and the [[AI]]'s intelligence has been reduced leading to more likely self-destructs, making it harder for each of them to stay together. The partner climber also no longer performs [[Blizzard]] behind the leader when used on the ground, and the move itself is less effective as a spacing tool due to its lack of knockback at max range. Finally, due to changes in [[Belay]]'s hitboxes, the move can gain significantly less height if the hitbox is out prioritized, and its overall size is smaller, making it harder to connect against grounded opponents.
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However, the Ice Climbers have received some useful buffs. As with almost every other returning veteran, their mobility has been considerably increased and the partner climber is now faster than the leader, making it harder to separate them. Some of their moves, including forward smash, down smash, and forward aerial deal higher damage with proportional KO power. The Ice Climbers also have superior combo potential on their own due to the removal of [[hitstun canceling]], the weakening of [[SDI]], and [[desynching]] remaining mostly intact. Thanks to improved [[freezing]] properties, the Ice Climbers can also freeze opponents easier and longer, which can lead to high damage, KOs while edgeguarding, shield pressure, and follow-ups if performed correctly.
However, the Ice Climbers have received some useful buffs. As with almost every other returning veteran, their mobility has been considerably increased and the partner climber is now faster than the leader, making it harder to separate them. Some of their moves, including forward smash, down smash, and forward aerial deal higher damage with proportional KO power. The Ice Climbers also have superior combo potential on their own due to the removal of [[hitstun canceling]], the weakening of [[SDI]], and [[desynching]] remaining mostly intact. Thanks to improved [[freezing]] properties, the Ice Climbers can also freeze opponents easier and longer, which can lead to high damage, KOs while edgeguarding, shield pressure, and follow-ups if performed correctly.


Overall, the Ice Climbers are significantly less effective than in ''Brawl''. Their learning curve has become drastically more steep, as the removal of chaingrabbing and weakening of miscellaneous moves forces them to rely on desynching to perform at full capacity. Even with the changes to game mechanics and late game updates giving them multiple benefits, the Ice Climbers perform worse than in ''Brawl'', and are by far the most nerfed characters in the transition to ''Ultimate''.
Overall, the Ice Climbers are significantly less effective than in ''Brawl''. Their learning curve has become much more steep, as the removal of chaingrabbing and weakening of miscellaneous moves forces them to rely on desynching to perform at full capacity. Even with the changes to game mechanics and late game updates giving them multiple benefits, the Ice Climbers perform worse than in ''Brawl'', and are by far the most nerfed characters in the transition ''Brawl'' to ''Ultimate''.


{{SSB4 to SSBU changelist|char=Ice Climbers}}
{{SSB4 to SSBU changelist|char=Ice Climbers}}
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