Talk:Fighter: Difference between revisions

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 ::Would not be against having a nonplayable article. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 13:57, 11 February 2019 (EST)
 ::We could also have a small section for background characters, and links to the Pokemon and AT list articles<span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 14:11, 11 February 2019 (EST)
+==Don't understand==
+What does he mean by "Killing the non-playable character section and renaming it"? [[User:Son Daniel|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:red;">SonDaniel</span>]][[File:SonDanielSignatureHead1.png|20px]][[File:SonDanielSignatureHead2.png|20px]] [[User talk:Son Daniel|(talk page)]] 23:53, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
+:That was from a year ago. I remember there was a table for several boss characters on this page, and it was instead named list of characters in the series or something along those lines. I think that’s the proposal that got this page renamed and made a new page for nonplayable characters. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 00:01, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 == Customizable and Transformation ==
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 The transformation cell color is currently pretty similar to the unlockable character color. Could we make it a little bluer, less gray? I can barely tell that Charizard is any different from Captain Falcon or Chrom on Ultimate. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 17:16, September 23, 2019 (EDT)
+== Delete the repeat ==
+Notes 15 and 21 are nearly identical, and one should be removed. [[User:Magolor04726|Magolor04726]] ([[User talk:Magolor04726|talk]]) 22:50, February 1, 2020 (EST)Magolor04726
+:Correction: 16 and 21, not 15. [[User:Magolor04726|Magolor04726]] ([[User talk:Magolor04726|talk]]) 21:51, February 8, 2020 (EST)Magolor04726
+::Um, can someone please make that edit? I haven't become autoconfirmed so I can't. [[User:Magolor04726|Magolor04726]] ([[User talk:Magolor04726|talk]]) 20:34, March 3, 2020 (EST)Magolor04726
+:::I got it. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 20:40, March 3, 2020 (EST)
+== Some trivia points that need to be purged ==
+''*''Smash 4'' is the first game to feature playable female swordfighters: [[Lucina]], female [[Robin]], female [[Corrin]], and female [[Mii Swordfighter]].
+**[[Koopalings|Wendy O. Koopa]], who appears as an alternate costume for Bowser Jr., is the first female villain to be a playable character in the series.''
+It's kind of arbitrary if a playable character is male or female, no? Especially since Peach has both used weapons in Smash and was an antagonist in Paper Mario TTYD (albiet brainwashed) Samus being the only female character in the first game is notable though, since it was the first game.
+''*[[Wario]] is the only character prior to ''Ultimate'' to debut as a starter before becoming unlockable in another game, as well as the only one prior to ''Smash 4'' to have never had fewer than 8 palette swaps.
+*Prior to ''Ultimate'', the only unlockable characters whose playable status was not kept a secret prior to release were {{SSBB|Snake}} and {{SSBB|Sonic}} in ''Brawl'', and {{SSB4|Lucina}} in ''Smash 4''.
+*Lucina and Wendy O. Koopa (the latter of whom is playable as an alternate model swap for Bowser Jr.) are also the first two unlockable female characters in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series. Unlike Lucina however, it is impossible to face Wendy in an unlock match (due to her only being accessible as a playable character through Bowser Jr.'s alternate costumes).''
+While notable, these are better left on [[Alternate costume]] and [[Unlockable character]] (and I think they're already there, since this trivia section is excessively long.
+''**Conversely, the [[Koopalings]] and the [[Hero]]es from {{uv|Dragon Quest}} ''[[Hero#Dragon Quest III|III]]'', ''[[Hero#Dragon Quest IV|IV]]'' and ''[[Hero#Dragon Quest VIII|VIII]]'' are the only alternate characters who debuted before their base fighter.''
+While the main trivia this is part of makes sense (Alph and Leaf didn't become costumes until Olimar and Red's later appearances), this seems to be only referring to these characters' home series. The Koopalings/Bowser Jr. and Heroes all became playable in Smash in the same game
+''*[[Master Hand]] is playable for one level during [[World of Light]] in ''Ultimate'' ''
+Already mentioned above the list. Redundant as trivia.
+''*When including DLC, every new ''Smash'' game has increased the number of newcomers per game.''
+Most fighting games don't do this, but this isn't really notable because Smash 4 and Ultimate required DLC to make it at that point. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]]|
+:Took out the ones that aren't notable or are better left/already on another page. However I personally find the Hero/Koopaling one interesting, so I seperated them to make more sense. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="font-family:Algerian">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd</font> <font color="aqua">the Toαd Wαrrior</font>]] [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">(BUP)</font></span>''']] 17:46, March 2, 2020 (EST)
+== Adding Totals to the tables. ==
+So I noticed the [[Stages]], [[Boss]], and [[Assist Trophy]] pages each list the total number of each on their tables. Should something like that be added to the table on this page? Maybe like what the Stages table does, and list returning and new fighters separate? [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 19:08, March 11, 2020 (EDT)
+I know it has been months since you discussed this, but we have added the Fighter totals to the page. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 20:09, September 1, 2020 (EDT)
+== Add other considered or intended fighters in a separate category? ==
+As there have been several characters who were considered or intended to become fighters, should we make another table for those would didn’t get in? [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 23:19, April 19, 2020 (EDT)
+:This one's not really needed. All it would really do is make the page longer than it actually needs to be. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #18F">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<span style="font-size:12pt"><font color="blue">OmegαToαd64</font></span>]] • [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">the Best Kαrter</font>]]'''</span> 23:28, April 19, 2020 (EDT)
+== Dr. Mario, Mewtwo, and Roy considered for Brawl? ==
+As they have fighter data in Brawl, shouldn’t they be intended as there was work put into them? While Sakurai has never said they were planned, the fighter data suggests it. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 23:22, April 19, 2020 (EDT)
+:I'm going to have to agree on this one. I'm guessing it's because they were not officially confirmed, but because they have unused fighter data it's clear they were intended. According to the {{SSBB|unused content}} page this is epecially the case for Roy and Mewtwo, as they have actual fighter data such as a fanfare. Plus Mewtwo has an unused Wiimote sound file for being selected, so for him it clearly implies that he was intended to be playable, but yet again cut for whatever reason, I'm still confused as to why they chose Jigglypuff over Mewtwo ''twice''. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #18F">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<span style="font-size:12pt"><font color="blue">OmegαToαd64</font></span>]] • [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">the Best Kαrter</font>]]'''</span> 23:59, April 19, 2020 (EDT)
+== Quotation pages? ==
+Hello, I was wondering if we could have separate quotation pages for fighters that are playable? There have been sounds and voice clips of every fighter as well as the announcer via https://www.sounds-resource.com/nintendo_switch/supersmashbrosultimate/ so we could also upload the sound clips that correspond towards their quotations. What do you think, should we add pages that show every one of their voice clips? [[User:GameBoy2936|GameBoy2936]] ([[User talk:GameBoy2936|talk]]) 01:27, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
+:What quotations are you talking about? [[User:Son Daniel|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:red;">SonDaniel</span>]][[File:SonDanielSignatureHead1.png|20px]][[File:SonDanielSignatureHead2.png|20px]] ([[User talk:Son Daniel|talk page]]) 02:13, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
+::This includes what fighters say when using taunts, abilities, attacks and victory poses, basically wherever they use any of their voice clips. [[User:GameBoy2936|GameBoy2936]] ([[User talk:GameBoy2936|talk]]) 02:42, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
+:::I would lean towards no, mostly because the Sound Test does that in-game. [[SmashWiki:What SmashWiki is not#SmashWiki is not a resource repository|We're not a resource repository]], so uploading that many sound clips that really aren't necessary for encyclopedic reporting is a bit over the top. But even if we don't upload the sound clips, we already transcribe important quotes (such as taunts and victory poses) in their relevant sections, and anything else would just be variations of grunts. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 02:57, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
+== Do we really need all the (intended)s and (considered)s and (boss)es clogging up the table? ==
+I'm not going to say it's ''useless'' information. It definitely should be somewhere on the wiki. But does it ''really'' need to be right there on the table? This is the page about fighters, so I reckon the only information on the table should be "are they a fighter or not", and "are they unlockable or not", and things like that. Not whether they were intended to be a fighter or whether they were an assist trophy in that game. That goes on that character's trivia section, or on the beta content pages, or on the Assist Trophy page, or at ''least'' in the trivia section of this page or something. I just think it's clogging up the table as it is now, which makes the whole thing a little less cleaner to read. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 12:15, August 15, 2020 (EDT)
+== Regarding Transformations ==
+Does there need to be a Transformation background for fighters? They already have references linking the fighters to being transformations and it doesn’t affect their availability. Wouldn’t it make more sense to have them be denoted as starters (with the exceptions of Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard in Ultimate as they’re unlockable with Pokémon Trainer)? [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 12:19, September 3, 2020 (EDT)
+I think them being transformations (and therefore effectively being part of another fighter) is a pretty major thing that warrants something more attention-grabbing than a footnote. After all, all the characters with blue backgrounds don't have their own space on the CSS. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 08:33, September 4, 2020 (EDT)
+The issue is that Zelda and Samus also have the blue background despite appearing on the CSS. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 10:50, September 4, 2020 (EDT)
+Huh? ...You're right, they do. I could've sworn they didn't. In my opinion, they ''shouldn't'', and I think it was that way at some point, but maybe it was changed? Anyway, yeah, those two and Pokémon Trainer should have regular backgrounds. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 19:33, September 13, 2020 (EDT)
+== Reused assets for playable characters. ==
+This is a topic that i already discussed on my talkpage, but given the large amount of reused assets, i wondered if any of the playable characters also reuse things like animations, models and etc from their home games. Apperently, according to comments from users or admins on the Model Resource, Sonic uses his model from Sonic and the Secret Rings but with different textures and edited model data, while Snake's model is his Sneaking Suit model from Metal Gear Solid 2 with different textures and Big Boss' head model from Metal Gear Solid 3. In addtion, Kazuya reuses his
+Tekken animations, some of which are almost 30 years old, while Ryu might reuse animations from Street Fighter IV and its updates. I don't have any model or animation viewing software or something like that, so can't verify if this is actually true. And for those wondering, im not counting reused from previous Smash games. So does anyone know any other potential asset reuses for playable characters?  [[User:GameDestroyer2008|GameDestroyer2008]] ([[User talk:GameDestroyer2008|talk]]) 16:43, November 14, 2022 (EST)
+:You don't seem to be making a distinction between re-used assets and re-created assets. Barring rare exceptions, I think it's safe to assume that models and animations for fighters are made specifically for Smash and that similarities to existing assets are because Smash is trying to represent the source material faithfully. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 18:50, November 14, 2022 (EST)
+:The only confirmed instance of a fighter reusing a model from somewhere else is with Ganondorf in Melee, where his model was taken from the Spaceworld 2000 GameCube Zelda Tech Demo due to his very late inclusion. Other similar models are purely speculation. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#28282B;border:solid FF0000 5px;border-radius: 4px;padding:1px 3px;color:#FF0000">Diddy Kongstar</span>]] 00:35, November 20, 2022 (EST)
+Just from how many different games have the Smash Bros games reused assets in general? [[User:GameDestroyer2008|GameDestroyer2008]] ([[User talk:GameDestroyer2008|talk]]) 06:59, December 3, 2022 (EST)
+== Page name ==
+I'd label the page with a move tag, but it seems just from general discussion that people can't decide on a name, so we're gonna gain consensus on what name this page should be called.
+This page was originally called '''character''', which wasn't terrible, but [[#Move|gathered enough outcry]] to warrant a move to the (at the time of this post) currently existing name of '''fighter'''. In attempting to figure out peoples' stances on this, the idea to move it to '''playable character''' was proposed, which I admit to not being opposed to myself. However, I think a single name decided under consensus should be utilized, so feel free to leave your thoughts here. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: black;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: orange">'''the Spooky Gamer'''</span>]] 13:50, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
+: '''Playable character''': "Character" in general seems to be a more common term than "Fighter"; however, I would much rather have "Playable character" since it is more specific and is also consistent with our [[Non-playable character]] page. And then "Character" can just be simply redirected there too. '''[[User:Voqéo|<span style="background:#000; color:white; padding:2px 6px;font-size:12px;">Voqéo</span>]][[User talk:Voqéo|<span style="background:#e70012; color:white; padding:2px 4px;font-size:12px;">T</span>]]''' 13:58, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
+: '''Playable character''': as per Voqéo. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 14:00, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
+: '''Playable character''': as per Voqeo and SenorMexicano [[User:S3AHAWK|<span style="font-family: Arial;color: Red; 0px">Seahawk</span>]] [[User talk:S3AHAWK|''<span style=" font-family: Comic Sans MS;color:Lime;">(talk)</span>'']][[File:S3AHAWK_Signature_icon_1.png|20px]] 14:12, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
+: '''Leaving it''' is preferred but '''Playable character''' would be fine. To quote a short essay I wrote a few years ago, ''"I would argue that, while SmashWiki may not be official, putting the use of official terminology first and foremost if possible is conducive to its agenda on the whole."'' The word "character" by itself has a specific singular definition in the dictionary, but "fighter" is the Smash term for, collectively, whoever or whatever you are playing as. Some fighters include multiple separate characters, and that's not to mention the fact that "character" by itself doesn't even tell you that it's someone you play as. The word could include NPCs, bosses, and spirits for all we know. '''A term commonly used in the community isn't necessary helpful for information purposes.''' So if you ask me, "Fighter" feels like a no-brainer page name, but if you insist on using more fan-agreeable terminology, "Playable character" does tick the right boxes since it's technically not unheard-of in the realm of official use, and establishes dichotomy from [[Non-playable character]]. Sincerely, '''[[User:Ender R. Musk|<span style="color:#cc00fa">Ender</span>]] [[User talk:Ender R. Musk|<span style="color:blue">Rhapsody</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ender R. Musk|<span style="color: #012061">Musk</span>]]'''. 14:14, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
+: '''Playable character''' --[[User:Meester Tweester|Meester Tweester]] ([[User talk:Meester Tweester|talk]]) 18:16, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
+: '''Playable character''': As far as I know, the term "Fighter" has only fully replaced "Character" in Ultimate, and in Smash 4 the two terms were used interchangeably. I support "Playable character" because it covers the most games and because "Character" is too vague. It's pretty rare for someone to call Melee characters "fighters", for example. [[User:Levii|Levii]] ([[User talk:Levii|talk]]) 18:29, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
+: '''Fighter''' is concise, specific, and easily understood. And I think there's value in the fact that it's a Smash term: When you're talking about fighters, you know you're talking about the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series. League has champions, Dota has heroes, Smash has fighters. And yes, the context of being on this wiki can clue you in that you're talking Smash, but using 'fighter' gives the discourse that distinctive Smash flavor, while 'playable character' is beige and bland. —[[User:Ardub23|Ardub23]] ([[User talk:Ardub23|talk]]) 22:17, November 1, 2023 (EDT)
+:I say '''leaving it as-is''' would be preferable, but changing it to '''Playable character''' would be ok, as per [[User:Ender_R._Musk|Ender]] and [[User:Ardub23|Ardub23]]. - [[User:Aykrivwassup|Aykrivwassup]] ([[User talk:Aykrivwassup|talk]]) 01:20, November 5, 2023 (EDT)
+: I'd say '''Fighter''' for the similar reasons as [[User:Ender_R._Musk|Ender]] and [[User:Ardub23|Ardub23]]. It's a concise way of labeling playable characters and I've recently been seeing more people use the word "fighter". [[User:Diddy Kongstar|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#28282B;border:solid FF0000 5px;border-radius: 4px;padding:1px 3px;color:#FF0000">Diddy Kongstar</span>]] 23:36, November 7, 2023 (EST)
+::Maybe it's because I'm only really involved in the competitive side of the community, but I honestly don't really see "figher" used too commonly. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 16:46, November 9, 2023 (EST)
+:'''Fighter'''. Although Smashwiki is not official, I think everyone can agree that the smash team themselves is pushing that name, [https://youtube.com/watch?v=K_z28RqWDU4 such as with the latest Sakurai video], or terms like "Fighters Pass" or "Echo Fighter". Even disregarding official-ness though, "playable character" is just way too generic, and, as Ardub said, using "fighter" gives the wiki its own "smash flavor". [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 12:37, November 10, 2023 (EST)