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== Dr. Mario and Mario in SSB4 ==
== Dr. Mario and Mario in SSB4 ==


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It is unknown if this definition fully applies to all Echo Fighters, but MM3 thinks otherwise (heck, he even thinks [[Richter (SSBU)|Richter]], plays identically to [[Simon (SSBU)|Simon]], based off Japanese PR-speak info on Richter and MM3's claim that the English info is a mistranslation), and tries to use this definition as an excuse to justify Dr. Mario, Young Link and Pichu not being Echoes (he falsely labels them as semi-clones, despite those characters possessing fewer differences than the likes of Luigi, Ganondorf, Falco, Roy, Lucas and Toon Link in ''Smash 4'') when it is most likely due to them being ''Melee'' veterans. In fact, Memoryman3's interpretation of the definition prevents any of the ''Melee'' clones in their initial appearances (possibly barring Dr. Mario due to his near-identical physics) from being classified as Echo Fighters! Physics isn't what makes a clone a clone rather than a semi-clone, it's ''moveset similarity''.
It is unknown if this definition fully applies to all Echo Fighters, but MM3 thinks otherwise (heck, he even thinks [[Richter (SSBU)|Richter]], plays identically to [[Simon (SSBU)|Simon]], based off Japanese PR-speak info on Richter and MM3's claim that the English info is a mistranslation), and tries to use this definition as an excuse to justify Dr. Mario, Young Link and Pichu not being Echoes (he falsely labels them as semi-clones, despite those characters possessing fewer differences than the likes of Luigi, Ganondorf, Falco, Roy, Lucas and Toon Link in ''Smash 4'') when it is most likely due to them being ''Melee'' veterans. In fact, Memoryman3's interpretation of the definition prevents any of the ''Melee'' clones in their initial appearances (possibly barring Dr. Mario due to his near-identical physics) from being classified as Echo Fighters! Physics isn't what makes a clone a clone rather than a semi-clone, it's ''moveset similarity''.


Therefore, I demand that my edits (found at [[User:Zakawer2/Clone]]) be applied to this article (and full protection be maintained as well). [[User:Zakawer2|Zakawer2]] ([[User talk:Zakawer2|talk]]) 13:50, 21 September 2018 (EDT)
Therefore, I demand that my edits (found at User:Zakawer2/Clone) be applied to this article (and full protection be maintained as well). [[User:Zakawer2|Zakawer2]] ([[User talk:Zakawer2|talk]]) 13:50, 21 September 2018 (EDT)
:First, it is inappropriate to "demand" that edits be made to any mainspace content. The wiki is a community-driven, collaborative effort to document the game, and changes to articles should be based on editors' consensus. Strong feelings are not a substitute for that consensus. It is also inappropriate to suggest a page deserves protection due to disagreement with another user, particularly permanent protection; page protection is generally only suitable for high-visibility pages that are prone to vandalism, or to resolve temporary issues.
:First, it is inappropriate to "demand" that edits be made to any mainspace content. The wiki is a community-driven, collaborative effort to document the game, and changes to articles should be based on editors' consensus. Strong feelings are not a substitute for that consensus. It is also inappropriate to suggest a page deserves protection due to disagreement with another user, particularly permanent protection; page protection is generally only suitable for high-visibility pages that are prone to vandalism, or to resolve temporary issues.
:Second, looking at the difference between yours and Memoryman3's versions ([https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Clone&type=revision&diff=1091762&oldid=1091513 seen here]), I am somewhat confused as to what you are arguing for. In general, I am in favor of his edit; the descriptions of characters are better worded, less prone to bias, and contain fewer grammatical mistakes. Could you provide some clarity as to which parts specifically you are objecting to? &ndash; [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 15:10, 21 September 2018 (EDT)
:Second, looking at the difference between yours and Memoryman3's versions ([https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Clone&type=revision&diff=1091762&oldid=1091513 seen here]), I am somewhat confused as to what you are arguing for. In general, I am in favor of his edit; the descriptions of characters are better worded, less prone to bias, and contain fewer grammatical mistakes. Could you provide some clarity as to which parts specifically you are objecting to? &ndash; [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 15:10, 21 September 2018 (EDT)
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The Direct just confirmed [[Ken Masters]] is joining Smash as Ryu's echo. Someone add him! [[User:infernape612|<span style="color:orange">infernape]][[User talk:infernape612|<span style="color:orange">612</span>]]</span> 11:59, 1 November 2018 (EDT)
The Direct just confirmed [[Ken Masters]] is joining Smash as Ryu's echo. Someone add him! [[User:infernape612|<span style="color:orange">infernape]][[User talk:infernape612|<span style="color:orange">612</span>]]</span> 11:59, 1 November 2018 (EDT)
== Luigi is not a semi clone ==
Luigi is not a semi clone because he has completely different moves than Mario. [[User:Crocodile Dippy 2|Crocodile Dippy 2]] ([[User talk:Crocodile Dippy 2|talk]]) 10:52, 10 December 2018 (EST)
:He's been a semi-clone ever since ''Melee'', Croc. The changes made to Mario in ''Smash 4'' still apply to Luigi as well, even if his grabs and throw have been drastically changed. Plus, two of his moves (up tilt and forward tilt) were slightly recloned to resemble Mario's again, and he still has the same up and back aerial animations as Mario as well. [[File:SonicSpeed48ChristmasSig.png|17px]][[User:SonicSpeed48|<span style="color: darkgreen ;">'''Sonic'''</span>]], [[User talk:SonicSpeed48|<span style="color: red;">'''the Cheerful Speedster'''</span>]][[File:ChristmasTimeTigger.png|17px]] 11:07, 10 December 2018 (EST)
::Luigi's status as a semi-clone has been subject to debate since SSB4. If we look at his current moveset, he shares a similar neutral, back, and up air, forward and up tilt, up and down smash, and similar standard and up specials. Meanwhile, his jab, dash attack,  down tilt, forward smash, forward and down aerial, side and down special, final smash all variation of his grabs, all throws, running and walking animations, helpless animation, idle animation, screen KO, character physics, and jumping animations are completely unique. Furthermore, some of his moves like Super Jump Punch have radically different properties that further distinguish him from his red counterpart. These differences put him more in line with Wolf. [[User:OldLink5|OldLink5]] ([[User talk:OldLink5|talk]]) 11:38, 10 December 2018 (EST)
:::No I mean Luigi is not a semi clone in Ultimate, not in other games. [[User:Crocodile Dippy 2|Crocodile Dippy 2]] ([[User talk: Crocodile Dippy 2]]) 19:18, 10 December 2018 (GMT)
::::Personnaly, they sould not be considered semi clone anymore, they have completely different moveset and property, Fox/Wolf share more than Mario/Luigi.[[User:Jf811|Jf811]] ([[User talk:Jf811|talk]]) 11:53, 13 December 2018 (EST)
It is very difficult in general to draw the line at which a character is ''no longer'' a semi-clone. I have [[User:Toomai/Cloneosity|a project]] that attempts to do so, but until I can complete it, things should stay as they are for now. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Pan-Galactic 10:45, 14 December 2018 (EST)
== Wolf in Ultimate ==
Sorry, if you're still going to list Lucas and Luigi in the Ultimate clone section, then you have to also list Wolf. The three of them are certainly a step above clones and semi-clones but it's pure favoritism to single out Wolf as special. He's still a character who has moves (all specials and final smash) clearly derived from another (Fox) and not anymore unique than either Luigi or Lucas compared to their original. [[Special:Contributions/72.89.170.85|72.89.170.85]]
:Agree, Mario/Luigi and Ness/Lucas are clearly now different from each other more than Wolf/Fox. [[User:Jf811|Jf811]] ([[User talk:Jf811|talk]]) 10:38, 14 December 2018 (EST)
Please read the section on Wolf in Brawl; it explains that Wolf's relationship to Fox is very unclear and hard to compare under the rules that work for other characters. Until we have enough time/resources to determine whether this holds true for Ultimate, things will stay are they are. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Xanthic 10:42, 14 December 2018 (EST)
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