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The official [[Tier List]] just came out. Discuss. <span style="color:#4CBB17">--Posted by</span> [[User:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">Pikamander2</span>]] <small>[[User Talk:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">(Talk)</span>]]</small> at 02:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
The official [[Tier List]] just came out. Discuss. <span style="color:#4CBB17">--Posted by</span> [[User:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">Pikamander2</span>]] <small>[[User Talk:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">(Talk)</span>]]</small> at 02:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
:The official Most Used Characters List just came out. Discuss. <span style="color:#4CBB17">--Posted by</span> [[User:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">Pikamander2</span>]] <small>[[User Talk:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">(Talk)</span>]]</small> at 02:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


:Fixed your post. [[User:Cafinator|Cafinator]] ([[User talk:Cafinator|talk]]) 02:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
:Fixed your post. [[User:Cafinator|Cafinator]] ([[User talk:Cafinator|talk]]) 02:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


::That was rude and not really an opinion on it. Consider why they're the most used. Just take a minute to wonder at all the possibilities of the ''why'', rather than making a sarcastic remark. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 02:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
::That was rude and not really an opinion on it. Consider why they're the most used. Just take a minute to wonder at all the possibilities of the ''why'', rather than making a sarcastic remark. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[User:Sky2042|w]]) 02:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Sarcasm is one of my **'''Free'''!** services! [[User:Cafinator|Cafinator]] ([[User talk:Cafinator|talk]]) 02:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Sarcasm is one of my **'''Free'''!** services! [[User:Cafinator|Cafinator]] ([[User talk:Cafinator|talk]]) 02:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
::::we never wanted it [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 02:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
::::we never wanted it [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 02:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
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This list is a little weird.  The only reason snake and meta knight are in those positions is because they are very easy to use, and they are the characters that are seen way more than others in tournaments.  Snake has no business in top tier because he is too slow.  Wolf is way better than that.  He can take advantage of projectile spammers.  He is also capable of destrying many character's ground game with his reflector.  Wolf is in general very fast.  Jigglypuff isn't that bad.  Jigglypuff can [[wall of pain]] opponents with few troubles.  Jigglypuff can also combo most characters very well with its attacks.  It is also nearly impossible to [[chain throw]].[[User:Y462|Y462]] ([[User talk:Y462|talk]]) 01:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
This list is a little weird.  The only reason snake and meta knight are in those positions is because they are very easy to use, and they are the characters that are seen way more than others in tournaments.  Snake has no business in top tier because he is too slow.  Wolf is way better than that.  He can take advantage of projectile spammers.  He is also capable of destrying many character's ground game with his reflector.  Wolf is in general very fast.  Jigglypuff isn't that bad.  Jigglypuff can [[wall of pain]] opponents with few troubles.  Jigglypuff can also combo most characters very well with its attacks.  It is also nearly impossible to [[chain throw]].[[User:Y462|Y462]] ([[User talk:Y462|talk]]) 01:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


:"and they are the characters that are seen way more than others in tournaments." - reread [[tier list]] please. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 01:19, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
:"and they are the characters that are seen way more than others in tournaments." - reread [[tier list]] please. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[User:Sky2042|w]]) 01:19, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


::I know how the tier list is made if that is what you mean.  I said that because that is actually what I see and hear.  I am sorry if I caused confusion. [[User:Y462|Y462]] ([[User talk:Y462|talk]]) 02:10, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
::I know how the tier list is made if that is what you mean.  I said that because that is actually what I see and hear.  I am sorry if I caused confusion. [[User:Y462|Y462]] ([[User talk:Y462|talk]]) 02:10, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
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*I hate to break it to you, but your "flaws" are a lot more serious than you think. Link has, by far, the worst recovery in the game. He often dies just form being knocked off the stage. When edgeguarded or edgehogged, it's almost guaranteed. And being a little on the slow side is bad. He really lacks quick moves, except for his zair, nair, bair, and jab, none of which pack a real punch. His projectile game is decent, but just having a projectile game doesn't cut it. It is difficult to get a kill with Link, due to the fact that any move with knockback has considerable uptime and downtime lag.
*I hate to break it to you, but your "flaws" are a lot more serious than you think. Link has, by far, the worst recovery in the game. He often dies just form being knocked off the stage. When edgeguarded or edgehogged, it's almost guaranteed. And being a little on the slow side is bad. He really lacks quick moves, except for his zair, nair, bair, and jab, none of which pack a real punch. His projectile game is decent, but just having a projectile game doesn't cut it. It is difficult to get a kill with Link, due to the fact that any move with knockback has considerable uptime and downtime lag.
And as for Sonic, Sonic is crap. He is hardly the "master of aerial combat", as his jump speed, air speed, and aerial attacks are all fairly slow. And his ground game is as bad as falcon's. Except worse, because nothing really kills. And his "Amazing" recovery can't sweetspot the edge, leading to numerous spiking and edgeguarding opportinities for his opponents. Face it people; the SBR knows more than you and your limited experience. Unless you just so happen to be a top tournament player, your personal experiecne with a character doesn't have much bearing. --[[User:Wildfire393|Wildfire393]] ([[User talk:Wildfire393|talk]]) 21:02, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
And as for Sonic, Sonic is crap. He is hardly the "master of aerial combat", as his jump speed, air speed, and aerial attacks are all fairly slow. And his ground game is as bad as falcon's. Except worse, because nothing really kills. And his "Amazing" recovery can't sweetspot the edge, leading to numerous spiking and edgeguarding opportinities for his opponents. Face it people; the SBR knows more than you and your limited experience. Unless you just so happen to be a top tournament player, your personal experiecne with a character doesn't have much bearing. --[[User:Wildfire393|Wildfire393]] ([[User talk:Wildfire393|talk]]) 21:02, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
It's wierd I dont really like this tier list at all... Its annoying and Meta Knight should just be banned forever. It's crazy how only a low tier character as Yoshi has 50/50 against him. Sure DK got it too but really. Meta is really annoying. It's too much power in one character. If anything this list has become very bias. SBR needs to fix this, and Nintendo needs to think more about killing a character (Captain falcon and Fox) I mean come on?! CF from 6 to last?! And Fox?! from 1st to 19th?! That's crazy...[[User:JetKamakura|JetKamakura]] ([[User talk:JetKamakura|talk]]) 16:21, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


== No, no, no, NO!!! ==
== No, no, no, NO!!! ==
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::Yeah unlike a lot of people, you actually put reasoning behind your' statements. I couldn't agree more about your' point about Lucas. But yes... I think alot of this lsit is based purely on match and tourney results.
::Yeah unlike a lot of people, you actually put reasoning behind your' statements. I couldn't agree more about your' point about Lucas. But yes... I think alot of this lsit is based purely on match and tourney results.


:I'm going to refute "Luigi below Bowser" by again simply linking [[tier list]]. This is not about 1v1 in each and every specific case. This is about the characters' '''overall''' performance in tournaments and the state of their metagame. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 19:02, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
:I'm going to refute "Luigi below Bowser" by again simply linking [[tier list]]. This is not about 1v1 in each and every specific case. This is about the characters' '''overall''' performance in tournaments and the state of their metagame. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[User:Sky2042|w]]) 19:02, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
::If I read correct, the list was 50% tourney results and 50% matchups.  According to my math (may be outdated), Marth should still be ahead of ROB, but not Dedede.  That may also explain Toon Link and Lucas's placements.  I forgot that this list (like mine) is more based on numbers than opinion, as it should be.  With Luigi and Bowser though, I still don't see why.  Bowser's best tactic is the [[Bowsercide]] (debatable), and Luigi can combo like Ken (who is gonna be on Survivor! WOOT!).  I've never played against, or seen, a decent Bowser user in action, and I main Luigi, so there is some bias there.  I still stand by what I said: the list was rushed, and, as a result, the list looks it.  [[User:Cheezperson|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="aquamarine">Cheezperson</font>]] ([[User talk:Cheezperson|speak to the big cheez]])
::If I read correct, the list was 50% tourney results and 50% matchups.  According to my math (may be outdated), Marth should still be ahead of ROB, but not Dedede.  That may also explain Toon Link and Lucas's placements.  I forgot that this list (like mine) is more based on numbers than opinion, as it should be.  With Luigi and Bowser though, I still don't see why.  Bowser's best tactic is the [[Bowsercide]] (debatable), and Luigi can combo like Ken (who is gonna be on Survivor! WOOT!).  I've never played against, or seen, a decent Bowser user in action, and I main Luigi, so there is some bias there.  I still stand by what I said: the list was rushed, and, as a result, the list looks it.  [[User:Cheezperson|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="aquamarine">Cheezperson</font>]] ([[User talk:Cheezperson|speak to the big cheez]])
:::Well Cheezperson... One of my friends mains Bowser in Melee and Brawl and in my opinion he was pretty decent with him. And, from what I've seen in matches and tournies, Bowser has advantages against many of the Top and High tiered characters which is why I think both Luigi and Bowser should at LEAST be in Middle Tier.
:::Well Cheezperson... One of my friends mains Bowser in Melee and Brawl and in my opinion he was pretty decent with him. And, from what I've seen in matches and tournies, Bowser has advantages against many of the Top and High tiered characters which is why I think both Luigi and Bowser should at LEAST be in Middle Tier.
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:Extreme TL;DR. '''[[User:Cafinator|<span style="color:Darkorange"><small><small>CAFINATOR</small></small></span>]]''' [[User talk:Cafinator|<span style="color:brown"><small><sup>Gentlemen...</sup></small></span>]] 14:57, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
:Extreme TL;DR. '''[[User:Cafinator|<span style="color:Darkorange"><small><small>CAFINATOR</small></small></span>]]''' [[User talk:Cafinator|<span style="color:brown"><small><sup>Gentlemen...</sup></small></span>]] 14:57, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


::If that is tl;dr, I pity you. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 16:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
::If that is tl;dr, I pity you. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[User:Sky2042|w]]) 16:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
:::I'm pretty sure that he was talking about the link, which i agree was tl;dr[[User:Smorekingxg456|Smorekingxg456]] ([[User talk:Smorekingxg456|talk]]) 17:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
:::I'm pretty sure that he was talking about the link, which i agree was tl;dr[[User:Smorekingxg456|Smorekingxg456]] ([[User talk:Smorekingxg456|talk]]) 17:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
::::If people would actually read it then the QQness would stop. And don't change your font color to white, it's disruptive.  --[[User:Shadowcrest|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest</font>]] 17:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
::::If people would actually read it then the QQness would stop. And don't change your font color to white, it's disruptive.  --[[User:Shadowcrest|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest</font>]] 17:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
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To the SBR's credit I think the top and high tiers are at least 95% right; it's the lower ones that look rushed. I think Link definitely should be higher than Mario for example. -[[User:RogueMastermind|RogueMastermind]]
To the SBR's credit I think the top and high tiers are at least 95% right; it's the lower ones that look rushed. I think Link definitely should be higher than Mario for example. -[[User:RogueMastermind|RogueMastermind]]
I didn't expect them to be perfect.  I just expected them to be less wrong (Ganon is better than Falcon... right).
[[User:A1lion835|A1lion835]] ([[User talk:A1lion835|talk]]) 04:46, 16 November 2008 (UTC)A1lion835


== Slow Characters ==
== Slow Characters ==
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-BrawLBlazer
-BrawLBlazer
FLUDD has some good uses! Check [[Cape Glide]]. Yes, it's risky, but still... - [[User:Amycats2|Doggy Guy]] ([[User talk:Amycats2|talk]]) 02:14, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
FLUDD is the most useless thing in the game. It does no damage, takes forever to charge up. It's so stupid I hate FLUDD. --[[User:GDawg816|GDawg816- &quot;Kept ya waiting, huh.&quot;]] ([[User talk:GDawg816|talk]]) 16:43, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd just like to say that I'm deeply saddened by the changes to Mario. I've been maining as Mario for 10 years now, back to the original SSB, and I am devastated to find out that he's been nerfed to death. FLUDD is useful, but hardly as good as Mario Tornado. It's just sad to me that I find myself going to characters like Lucario and Dedede more than the character I grew up using. -DRxINFERNO
:Mario's F.L.U.D.D. is fun to use and it can come in handy. But yes, I personally liked the Mario Tornado more. I miss my Down Aerial to Mario Tornado combos. But I also main him since the first smash bros and I still do. We just need to adapt ourselves to his new moves. For me, Mario will always be the man.
:About that Sakurai thing of the characters being balanced, I have something to say. Sakurai's criations (Kirby, MK and DDD) rock in competitive play. If you think about it, their Final Smashes suck (although Meta Knight's is decent, but still...) but in competitive play there are no items. And normally Final Smashes make it up for the character's moveset. For instance, Sonic lacks KO potential, but his Final Smash is one of the best. Did Sakurai give them crappy Final Smashes ocasionally? I don't think so. And you? [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 15:30, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Ok, just to shed some light on this, F.L.U.D.D. isn't useless it's actually a very good move but you have to learn how to use it first. Read this guide, it shed a lot of light on the F.L.U.D.D. for me: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196174
[[User:Mario, the classic man of Nintendo|Mario, the classic man of Nintendo]] ([[User talk:Mario, the classic man of Nintendo|talk]])


==The List Sucks==
==The List Sucks==
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:Yay! another person to prove wrong! first off, Quick Draw=Horrible recovery. If someone just walks into it, Ike is immediately stopped, losing his chance of recovery. Aether is the only practical move for SA, and it takes a while for him to get back up from it. Shield to Fsmash anyone? He has a small shield size for his size, and Counter comes out slowly. So what if '''''one guy''''' contributes to Ike's metagame? Hundreds of people contribute to characters like Snake etc. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 01:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:Yay! another person to prove wrong! first off, Quick Draw=Horrible recovery. If someone just walks into it, Ike is immediately stopped, losing his chance of recovery. Aether is the only practical move for SA, and it takes a while for him to get back up from it. Shield to Fsmash anyone? He has a small shield size for his size, and Counter comes out slowly. So what if '''''one guy''''' contributes to Ike's metagame? Hundreds of people contribute to characters like Snake etc. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 01:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
::Wrong. Thousands of humans use Ike. They don't always use quickdraw, they will use Aether as well, duh! Also, Ike's counter is about as fast as Marths, but slightly stronger. Ike's shield is fine! He is also heavy! <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 02:01, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
::Wrong. Thousands of humans use Ike. They don't always use quickdraw, they will use Aether as well, duh! Also, Ike's counter is about as fast as Marths, but slightly stronger. Ike's shield is fine! He is also heavy! <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 02:01, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Ah, yes thousands of humans use Ike. None of them are any good. The counter isnt as fast as marths, i did an experiment, and it took many more frames to have it open, so what if its stronger, If marth tips his he does the same amount of damage. His shield does suck, it is small and liable to shield poking. Heavyness is not useful in brawl, as their is low hitstun. Bowser is heavy but he gets KO'd [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 02:36, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
::::Ike's counter doesn't come close to matching Marth's in terms of speed.  When it comes to defensive moves, 6 frames is a big deal.  That's a tenth of a second delay right there, and that's not something you can always afford in a heated game.  As for the rest of Ike, you can see [[Forum:Anyone got an idea for a Brawl Tier list?|this forum]] for a previous discussion on it.  As for Ike's recovery, it is decent in one of the two directions, and horrible in the one you don't choose.  And I'm drawing a blank as to how his being slow is an advantage.  Yes, I'll grant that with good prediction skills you can overcome it to a degree, but that doesn't stop it from being a disadvantage.  Furthermore, those prediction skills would be put to better use with a character whose moves, to quote a previous discussion, are not "so slow that Helen Keller could see them coming."  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 03:02, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::Meh, I guess I got carried away on there. I see your guys' points, and I know perfectly well that Ike's counter has more start-up lag than Marth's. However, that also adds to the prediction thing as well, and Ike isn't as vulnerable as Marth after the counter frames end. I still think that Ike could be at least a LITTLE bit higher on the tier list, though. Wolf, too. -[[User:ACDCGAMER|ACDCGAMER]] ([[User talk:ACDCGAMER|talk]]) 04:24, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::Well I think Sheik should be higher [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 04:38, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Well, I think that Chuck Norris should be above the top tier. XD -[[User:ACDCGAMER|ACDCGAMER]] ([[User talk:ACDCGAMER|talk]]) 17:21, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:JtM, some of the best pros on this planet use Ike. It's just moar noobs use him than pros do. Following me here? As for Ike's counter being slower than Marth's, that is true. '''However''', since when someone hits any of them while countering, the enemy will freeze for a bit and take the damage, the speed of the move doesn't really matter, just the Start Up lag. Shiek, much like Yoshi, has been badly weakened from Melee, but she can perform techniques like Stalling-then-falling and tether recovering. ACDCGAMER, you're right. Wolf and Ike are very powerful and should be put up a tad higher. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 05:26, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:The start up lag was what I was referring to when I said that it is slower.  Ike's counter has a tenth of a second more start up lag than Marth's, and in terms of effectiveness that makes it much worse.  And not to sound like an ass, but what pros are you referencing that play Ike.  I've seen Azen and Gimpy play friendlies as him, but neither of them main him, and to be quite honest, Ike did not look all that promising even in the hands of tow of the top players in the world (not saying that I could beat either of them, but still...).  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 14:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
::Clarinet Hawk, mah boi, you sounded nothing like an ass. Well, I don't exactly know the names of them but I heard in Japan that they usually main Ike. Fight [[User:GalaxiaD|my friend]], he'll show you that Ike is no force to be reckoned with. He has very good range, powerful attacks, and moderate manueverability. I know you have Marth as one of your mains, and not to sound stereotypical, but most of them dislike Ike. I, unlike most players, main low tier characters like Squirtle, Charizard, and Mario as well as Diddy Kong and R.O.B. (I say he's low because people only use him for his Dsmash). I'm going to your page to talk about the crew battle now. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 16:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
::I do play Marth, but Falco and Zelda are my Ike counters.  Diddy isn't a bad one either, although his light weight is amplified while fighting Ike.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 22:31, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:I main Falco as a secondary. I'm glad you know that Diddy is light too, some say he's a middleweight because he appeared in Mario Kart Wii as a medium character. Very stupid. On the other hand, I don't see how anyone could main Zelda professionally. Anyone can uncontrolably tap the C-stick repetatively for her strong-ass magic attacks. I usually use Olimar as my Zelda counter because his yellow pikmin can slightly cancel Zelda's magic. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 01:04, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
== Snake?? SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE!!!!! ==
Personally, I don't see what all the controversy's about. As long as Snake is top tier, I'm happy. Any thoughts? --[[User:GDawg816|GDawg816- &quot;Kept ya waiting, huh.&quot;]] ([[User talk:GDawg816|talk]]) 17:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:I think Snake is a great character too, I just need to get used to him more. :P  -[[User:ACDCGAMER|ACDCGAMER]] ([[User talk:ACDCGAMER|talk]]) 17:22, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Too slow and too technical for my blood. I'm all about speed, baby (not the drug)! - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 22:49, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
He's got good camping skills but other than that, Snake is sunk. I dont need to be in Snake's face to fight him, this is why I use Lucas. Not only are Lucas' projectiles faster than Snake's but the disjoined hitboxes of Lucas' moves are crazy. And if you can master Zap Jumping and Magnet Pulling ( the latter isnt hard, the Jumping is the hard part) you can recover pretty nicely, as long as you dont get sent up in the air. Lucas really needs to be at least low high. I know his moves are laggy, but this is why you dont use them unless you backed your opponent into a place where you KNOW they will either hit, or miss and you wont get the backhand. All Lucas masters will know when to use Usmash and Dsmash or PK Thunder. Snake isnt that great, and I'm going to prove it but kicking his ass, ROB's ass, Falco's ass, G&W's ass and especially Dedede's. Only person I say he couldnt beat is MK and that's because he's broken as hell. What was Sakurai thinking, packing all that damn power into one character? I mean, he has an advantage over like 88% of the cast. The only people that can have an least a chance of beating him is DK and Yoshi( who I still dont get is low tier if he has this chance of beating the best ranked character in the game, that's a load of bullshit.) Really, to beat Meta, you just have to hope you get Lucky, because honestly, all I see Meta do is UpB Dsmash, Glide Attack. And if he doesnt wanna fight, Dimension Cape stall anyone? Meta is just bastard..[[User:JetKamakura|JetKamakura]] ([[User talk:JetKamakura|talk]]) 23:46, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:You sure do complain alot. All the characters that you think suck happen to be the best! You wanna know who sucks? Lucas, Pit, and Toon Link. Peach sucks as well. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 01:06, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
:i think that snake is easy to learn to play as, but harder to learn how to fight against.
BMK I wasnt complaning. I was saying that it just takes a little skill to use Lucas, and thats why people dont use him. They dont wanna practice, they just wanna use a character that is easy to use, kills easily, and wins. That's not skill, it's just not funny.... Games are supposed to be fun, but using these MK, it just sucks the fun out of everything... I mean no disrespect to anyone, or you BMK or any of the characters. I am just stating my opinion towards the higher tier characters. That is it.[[User:JetKamakura|JetKamakura]] ([[User talk:JetKamakura|talk]]) 00:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
:Not entirely true, like i said in the sentence underneath this, I main Peach. She has trouble getting kills and she is definitely not easy to use. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 01:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
::You do know your saying that to a Peach mainer? [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 01:46, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Snake has the element of surprise. I lay a C4 down, wait, until theyve forgot about it, then blow it up. His Up Smash is powerful and has crazy long range. And sorry, but since I am a dedicated Ness hater, I hate Lucas as well cuz he's just like him. Yep I agree with JTM, peach has crazy good recovery and can randomly pull out bob-ombs and stuff. That's awesome. Bottom line is Lucas is a pansy..--[[User:GDawg816|GDawg816- &quot;Kept ya waiting, huh.&quot;]] ([[User talk:GDawg816|talk]]) 16:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
::::No player worth his/her salt is going to forget where you placed the C4.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 17:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
:I don't think Peach is all that good. The odds of pulling out a Bob-omb are very low, not to mention that Peach's F-Air is probably her only kill move. She's light, has bad priority, and a bad approach too. Her recovery is the only prop I can think of for her. On a side note, I'm undefeated against JtM's Peach. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 23:04, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
::Might that be because i just started using her? here is the fun part, She has more kill move than characters like Sonic(well, everyone does, but still) Usmash, Fair, Utilt, Stitchface(much more possibility than bobombs), etc. Peach has good kill moves. Bad approach? If she has a bad approach, then Glide-Tossed turnip and Peach bomber are nothing. Those are 2 great approaches. Light? Poor DI much? Bad priority, which is why you have to use her defensively. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 01:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
If you're going to try and disprove me, at least don't use that upper-class tone. I can't stand that. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 03:55, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
:You still havent changed... you ''still'' cant stand it when someone is right. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 13:27, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
::Because you're not right. Stop acting like a know-it-all. If you knew what you were talking about, then you'd be a better Smasher than me, but you're not. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 23:53, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I dont have to be good to know how to be good. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 00:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
::JtM is right, Peach can KO with her Uair, Fmash, and Usmash, but that's just about it. But, '''you''', JtM can't stand when someone proves you wrong. Like GXD said, she sucks. Sonic has a better back air, Forward air, down air, Fsmash, and Usmash. He also has a better down smash. Face, Peach is ZSS with a dress on. For god's sake, quit saying everyone can't stand anything. It gets annoying. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 21:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
:::How did i know you would defend GXD. ZSS with a dress on? whats that supposed to mean?! Sonic's Dair is only use by low level players, High level players can find a way to the ground without using that. Sonis definitely doesnt have a better Usmash, for gods sake his Utilt is stronger!! O_o you honestly think that Sonics fair WHICH YOU CAN DI OUT OF is better than Peaches powerful one? I'm sorry, but you have a screwed up version of metagame. whenever i say something i believe is right, GXD always says in an odd tone(yes, i can hear the internet) dont try and say im not right. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 22:59, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
::'''YOU. ARE. WRONG.''' Your just mad because my Sonic and my R.O.B. can kill your Peach. Try not to get too feminine, JtM. People (that '''DOES NOT''' include me) will think that you hate dudes. Try to use characters other than mine, i.e. Diddy Kong. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 00:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
:::'''YOU. HAVEN'T. CHANGED.''' Seriously, you guys need to chill. If JtM believes that Peach is better than Sonic (which IMO, she is. Then again, I'm not particularly good with either one), he's fully inclined to do so. If you believe that the 2nd-graders at your school are right and that girls are yucky and you therefore find it necessary to constantly flame the people who use them, that's your prerogative, Blue. If GXD feels the need to ALWAYS say he's the better smasher just because his ridiculously repetitive playstyle actually works on other n00bs (once again, that stupid pride I so constantly tried to break him out of), then the whole freedom of speech thing gives him full power to say such. I honestly only came here to help JtM because he said Blue was starting trouble again, and the Ike user within me told me to fight for my friends. I don't really give a crap about tiers, but these petty conflicts need to come to a stop. Honestly, you had best be glad I'm not a sysop (nor do I really want the job, too much responsibility), because I tend to have a zero tolerance for stupid arguments. [[User:Shade487z|Shade]] ([[User talk:Shade487z|talk]]) 00:34, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
::::My pride is not stupid by any means, Shade. It is pride I have earned, because several people respect me and look up to me. They say I'm one of the best Smashers they've ever faced. You can't honestly sit there and say that Smashers are divided into just two categories. There are pros and nOObs, yes, but there are many types in between as well. I'm not a nOOb, because I don't suck at Brawl. In my humble opinion, I believe I'm rather skilled, and most people have agreed with me. Then again, I'm not a pro either, because I've never been to a tournament or faced other pros. This is why there are other denominations like Pro-Am and Semi-Pro, which are classes I believe I fit into. I've never played in a tournament, but I believe I could play on the same level as the pros (remember, it's easier to beat a pro in Brawl than it is to beat one in Melee). That's the definition of a Pro-Am. That's what I am, but I hope to go pro one day after winning some tournaments. I am not a nOOb, nor will I ever be one. Case closed. And if I'm so repetitive and easy to read, why can't you ever beat me consistently? I mean, you can read me like a book, right? - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 03:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
:You use Diddy? dont you read? I said I havent used peach for a long time. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 00:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Since when did this turn into an argument about Peach? Snake rulez --[[User:GDawg816|GDawg816- &quot;Kept ya waiting, huh.&quot;]] ([[User talk:GDawg816|talk]]) 13:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
:You're right too, Snake has some of the most powerful Kicks in the game, but his moveset is much to confusing for me. I can prolly land an Fsmash every now and then, though. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 21:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
== counters for Meta Knight?  ==
Wolf has to be a counter because i have raped many a metaknight on wifi with my wolf because his blaster would screws up their approach.The blaster will stop mk's b, and forward b, and at close range the dagger at the end pushes him back, Then i just use quick a button attacks to build up damage and finish with a dsmash or usmash. The only problem is mk can gimp wolfs recovery like crazy, but I would never let myself get knocked off the stage much anyways. Also, wolf has way better range on his fsmash than any of mk moves except for his forward b but that move is kinda slow.
Well, if Wolf is a counter for Meta, count me in! I use Wolf myself, and I'd love to see Wolf kill him. Wolf does have better range... But that recoverery has to be fixed.[[User:JetKamakura|JetKamakura]] ([[User talk:JetKamakura|talk]]) 17:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
== A Good Tier List ==
I like this tier list, it actully addresses the fact that speedy characters arn't gods and is more fair compared to the other tier lists, and I'm great that they didn't just put heavy characters at top and high tier. I also 50% agree where Sonic is, he is good but not that good I mean he deserves a higher place, Snake's tier is totally suprising because you need good planning and your simply love long ranged weapons. Meta Knight I 90% agree, he is really good but he doesn't have any ranged attacks and I enjoy the fact Bowser is suprerior to Ganondorf tier wise and his potential has been born. I wonder what it would be like if The Apprentice was in SSBB from TFU. I like tier lists and if there is a war, I'm with the tier list side. [[User:Dark Overlord|Dark Overlord]] ([[User talk:Dark Overlord|talk]]) 03:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
: I agree with the tiers, just not the lists. - Pokegamer
== YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME..... ==
ok, seriously..... Sonic, one of the last?'lemme tell you, i main sonic, and at least deserves to be high-tier, if not, low on the top-tier list. i mean seriously! He lacks KO potential, but that is what his speed is made for! not letting the opponent hit you until you get them to around 180% isn't that difficult to pull off (ok, i may have exaggerated a bit, its more like 130% but still!) then,  simple side smash, or down smash can finish! Dang, most of the time i play as sonic, the opponent gets ko'd around 50% with his superb aerial combat, of my secret aerial spin-dash combos! i can understand some of the characters being in their place, but seriously, think about sonic.and Dedede. he's high because of what? that figgin' chain-grapple spamming crap? think about it. other characters have advantages, and some have flaws. but think about the quantity of advantages over quality, will ya'?!?!? sheesh.....  <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Exeledus|Exeledus]] ([[User talk:Exeledus|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Exeledus|contribs]]) 21:54, 8 October 2008</small>
:Quality > quantity has never been more true.  --[[User:Shadowcrest|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest</font>]] 22:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::O_o wow. youre kinda late. but you cant be serious when you say Sonic should be higher than MK [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 22:42, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Dude, Sonic is bad.  His aerial combat?  What with his slow air speed and inability to sweet-spot the ledge, he's easily juggled by the opponent.  But hey, if you really think Sonic is awesome, go win some tournaments with him and we'll talk then.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 23:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Actually, Sonic has the 5th greatest air speed in the game, tied with DK. And if Sonic's in danger of being juggled, he can just use his Stall-Then-Fall to counter them. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 01:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:well you could, but then the landing lag is WAY too punishable. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 02:34, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::Only if the juggler has low damage. If he/she has high damage, then they'll receive knockback and Sonic will be able to get out of his landing lag in time. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 22:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I believe there is an entire forum page on this somewhere.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 02:39, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:[[Forum:Opinions on Sonic|This]] is it, FYI.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 02:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree Sonic should be higher, but he definately does not deserve high tier.
-BrawLBlazer
== Lol? ==
In one of his updates (or whatever they were called), Sakurai actually said that ZSS wasn't the best of fighters. And yet she ended up higher on the list than her Power Suit form did. <span style="color:#4CBB17">--Posted by</span> [[User:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">Pikamander2</span>]] <small>[[User Talk:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">(Talk)</span>]]</small> at 02:56, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:u got the wrong idea. look right here. [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stout he called her not the stoutest, not "not the strongest"] --[[Special:Contributions/69.12.204.172|The Anonymous]]--
Snake? SECOND BEST? You know there is something wrong when Snake is second best. But i have to agree with a lot of the other placings. Especially MetaKnight. But Kirby and Captain Falcon should be so much higher! [[Cook Kirby]]
Agreed with Kirby higher, but Snake is second in the tier list due to amazing projectiles (most of which are difficult to reflect), quick finishers (up tilt and dash attack), superb recovery (C4 and Cypher can create nearly infinite recovery, and the latter gives Super Armor), Snakedashing, powerful aerials, including two spikes, and heavy weight. There's a reason he's possibly the most used character in tournaments. [[User:Meteorite|Meteorite]] ([[User talk:Meteorite|talk]]) 12:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
And what would that reason be? He's definitely not a pick-up-and-play character like MK. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 18:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:No, hes not. But the people that DO use him a lot like Tapion and Ally are WAY too good with him [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 21:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
== King Dedede ==
I know that SBR knows a LOT more than me, so I am not complaining about the tier list.  Having said that, why is King Dedede the third highest tier?  He has the slowest air speed, is slow, a large target who can't duck, predictable recovery, and most importantly he is the king of lag.  But remember: I'm not saying that King Dedede should be lowered from his position.  I'm sure that there are good reasons why is Top Tier and I would just like to know them. [[User:Enigmatic Mr. L|Enigmatic Mr. L]] ([[User talk:Enigmatic Mr. L|talk]])
:Make up your mind!  Anywho, it's because he can chaingrab and has ranged, powerful attacks.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 01:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
DDD has a great stand-alone air game, decent priority attacks with plenty of reach, strong recovery, one of the best projectiles in the game, and has retarded chain grabbing. He boasts a great defensive game and Inhale/Waddle Dee Toss protects him from other projectiles as well. DDD may not be great in a FFA, but he's a monster in 1v1.
[[User:RogueMastermind|RogueMastermind]] ([[User talk:RogueMastermind|talk]])
Dedede's Waddle Dee throw can block projectiles very easily, and yes, he has a good defensive game, helping him being a large target. While his recovery is predictable, it's not that easy to be gimped - Special Up has Super Armor, and anybody who tries to go underneath it will be spiked. Not only that, it improves his air speed. His quick attacks (back air, up and down tilts) are good for racking up damage. His Jet Hammer can make him kill at dangerous percentages (150%+). His side smash is a great edge-guarder tool and can kill at extremely low percentages. The rest are good, somewhat quick finishers (down) or good to start combos (up). His multihit attacks are powerful and have quick start up time (up air, down air, neutral a). He's just an overall good character. [[User:Meteorite|Meteorite]] ([[User talk:Meteorite|talk]]) 12:47, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
I didn't mean to sound indecisive.  I just listed his cons because one person would list and deconstruct them, like Meteorite did with the thing about being a large target and predictable recovery.  Thanks for explaining it to me guys!  [[User:Enigmatic Mr. L|Enigmatic Mr. L]]  ([[User talk:Enigmatic Mr. L|talk]])
== Is anybody listening ==
These are some people's opinions, and you guys ahve to complain about them. Very mature. [[User:Solar flute|Solar flute]] ([[User talk:Solar flute|talk]])
:Well, their opinions (I'm guessing you're talking about SBR) were made official.  Officiality of anything is always controversial.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 22:18, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
::interesting thought, cheezperson. true. [[User:Solar flute|Solar flute]] ([[User talk:Solar flute|talk]]) 04:13, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
== i thought olimar would be higher ==
----
i thought olimar would be a ton higher and serisously what makes people say meta night is best...
TIRES DON EXITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
=== My little addition to the article ===
I personally know many members of SBR and smashboards who helped make this list, before I start, I have been to tourneys since smash 64 days and these are all my honest opinions from playing vs. some of the top people
Top
Meta Knight: Deserves this spot, no real counter besides some people say Marth (a bit) and Game and Watch (soft counter), tornado incredibly powerful, aerials great, great down smash, and one of the only recoveries that cannot be gimped, slightly light but easy enough to survive further than most lights due to recovery, watch M2K or Plainrhk LOL planking, or Inui for the Lulz
Snake: Correct, overpowered tilts, Very odd hitboxes (as in broken for up tilt), a bit too heavy which is a good thing, recovery can be gimped, ALC'd n-air is incredibly powerful, grenades and Snakedash assist low running speed by allowing great approaches, only reason why I don't say top is due to recovery problems (and King D3), watch DSF, Unholydeath, Tapion, or Ally
King D3: I personally think 4th or 3rd, Some incredibly good matchups (Luigi, Bowser, Ike, Ganon), some moderately bad matchups (MK a bit), only reason why he'll stay up there is due to his great work vs snake, overpowered recovery,  for a heavy, Does '''not''' just have chaingrabs, Have you EVER seen a pro d3 use back air and up tilt or are you just used to throw's? Watch Aero or M2K
Mr. Game & Watch: Deserves D3 spot or this spot, OVERPOWERED BACK AIR, ALL smashes have ISA frames and extra hit boxes, Down smash has ridiculous properties (one of few good edgeguards in the entire game), Up Smash kills at too low percentages, F-smash has extra hitbox and kills quickly, down tilt good edgeguard, Best or second best glide toss in the game, Up B canceling into down air prevents most counterattacks, n-air can "combo", only real problem is weight, float, and shield, and let's not forget, '''he is the ONLY CHARACTER IN THE GAME THAT ACTUALLY DOES ACTUALLY WELL VS META BESIDES LUIGI''', watch DC, not enough people playing him
Falco: Laser's, throws gimp (combined with reverse dashed throws and other tactics, dash-canceled up smashes rape shields, recovery big problem, aerials help, HUGE problem with killing besides f-smash and at odd times back air or down air gimps vs some characters, Massiveguns, Red Haliberd good examples
R.O.B.: great recovery, f-air to down air gimp, glide toss's assist Down B, good throws, nice kills, maybe better than falco, MAYBE, just plain good vs every character, no real major weakness, bad moves out of shield besides down smash but down smash can be Smash DI'd out of, BEST RECOVERY IN THE GAME, (Metal Fists of Pain for the win), most ROB's are good, watch DullRazor
High
Marth: aerials rape, down tilt has ISA frames, Tippered aerials and smashes kill at ridiculous percentages, nice weight, great range, moderately good vs MK, moderate recovery, just top tier characters are slightly better, moderate weakness to snake and R.O.B., watch Bardull or the combo video redemption
Wario: Good aerials, recovery can be gimped, good kill moves but can be hard to hit them, heavy but a bit floaty, So....Many.....Super Armor Frames, Down air is good, unpredictable, Futile's Wario, Nuff Said......xD
Lucario: good aerials, recovery can be gimped, I think this one might be a bit too high, recovery, good throws, Aura, Azen and Zujii help tremendously with this ranking
Donkey Kong: Bum is too good xD, does moderatley well vs both snake and MK (this is the reason), back air is good, smashes kill, down smash kills easy, Great super armor moves, Up B helps and is moderately good recovery, nice weight,
Diddy: DANG IT Banana's, Banana combos, moderate recovery, very quick moves, not that many killing moves but banana's help tremendously in this department, weight a bit low, NinjaKing, Dapuffster good choices
Pikachu: There is only one thing I need to say: QUAC, QUAC, and more QUAC, Watch anther for a good idea, a bit too light, recovery great
Ice Climbers: 0 to deaths with throws, loses vs Luigi and does bad vs projectile users, but 0 to deaths = win, Blizzard = too good, watch Fly Amarita
Kirby: Combo crazy, Thows = massacre, kills become predictable, wall of pain, dies way to easily, multiple people are good (no specific)
Pit: allows 2 ways of playing him, aerials somewhat good, moderately bad vs Rob, Meta, and Snake, does well vs heavies, great recovery but can be gimped, Projectiles = Win, watch Admiral Pit or other's
Wolf: Recovery = bad, good back air and f-air, down smash is good, can get out of other moves, only main problem recovery, watch Germ's Wolf
Middle
Toon Link: great projectiles, nice ko's, can be gimped, too floaty, dies a bit too easy, watch Hyrulian Royalty
Olimar: as in Lolimar for his recovery, get him off the edge and dead, good aerials, incredibly weird hitboxes, watch L-Cancel for good uses or other good ones, Down B = Fun to prevent kills
Fox: Watch samboner, nuff said, up smash crazy, can be gimped, a bit too quick, nice shine, good back air, problem recovery and a bit KO'ing, problem vs snake and falco
Zelda: Smashes can be gotten out of, incredibly easy to predict, recovery buffed, aerials somewhat buffed, good Zelda users can use her new lightning kick well, Easily predictable is real only problem, recovery can be gimped at the beginning, Good projectiles, Watch Dark musician
Zero Suit Samus: myRoboticClaw, nuff said, good kills, back air great, recovery can be gimped from below, killed a bit to easy, GREAT aerials and approach
Bowser: Survives....Way.....Too....Long, good f-air and down smash, i think this is a bit too high (maybe luigi is slightly better), moderately good vs meta, Side-Stepped Down throw infinite by D3 kills him and prevents any higher placement
Luigi, harder to infinite than most (but good d3's can), floaty, great aerials, main problem is marth and d3 (basically good vs top tiers and bad for high tiers), as said above cannot handle quick aerial characters, watch Samboner, Jbandrew, Meep, Ultra Luigi, or definitley m2 (the person playing vs Kizzu) or the Isreali player who also plays a mean Ice Climber, problem recovery
Peach: not enough killing moves, great combos but really only at 0, can be predicted, good recovery but can be gimped, good down air and f-air, turnips help, watch Praxis, DarkPch, Crystal Peach, or Edrees
Ike, Tap a cancels of doom, Throws help, Smashes kill, good ikes can predict, big problem vs Projectile users, too much countered by Falco, watch  RenegadeX2000 (I think thats his name) or a bunch of others
Sheik, watch Gimpyfish (GET F-AIR GIMPED), not that many kills, moderately bad recovery, tilts help, good vs fast fallers, bad vs floaties, a bit too high
Low
Lucas: Watch Chucky or a bunch of others, good kills, down smash helps tremendously, good air's, can be gimped, I think better than shiek but worse than others, throw for marth = dead
Ness: Its Lucas but he can't kill as easy and has a worse recovery, Nuff Said, good throws for kills, problem vs star fox characters, down air = win, HORRIBLE recovery, Throw for marth = dead, not that many people use him
Mario: bad recovery, good aerials, i think better than ness, moderate kill problem, great back air and down throw, watch BOSS or some others
Pokémon Trainer: Squirtle is great due to hydroplaning but has too little range and moderately bad recovery,, Ivysaur is good for combos but has the recovery of lolimar and weaker aerials, Charizard has many killing moves but too little to work with at lower percentages, better than mario I think, not enough people use him
Samus, way too little ko's but better than this placement, f-air to down tilt = win for kills, good projectiles, fails vs meta's and all of the star fox characters, Z-Air is too good, watch remember the name (Rohins), Xyro's samus, or Tudor's Orange Oompa Loompa
Bottom
Yoshi: Hmm, not enough ko's, new techniques are helping, shield is fun to use, does bad vs GaW, good recovery
Sonic: good damage dealing, not enough ko's, recovery can be gimped but good, watch good yoshi's xD
Jigglypuff, Good aerials but too little range, loses to marth kinda badly, does moderatley well vs projectile characters, not enough range and too light, smash's don't help, watch any good one lool
Ganondorf HITS LIKE A BEAST, but is really slow and projectile users (esp falco) kill him, Lag-cancelled aerials win, watch Zakosai or others
Link: bad recovery, I think better than ganon, projectiles help, watch Izaw
Captain Falcon: Prime = TOO GOOD...that is all, can't combo for s***, bad priorit
KoRo TeH BeAr 13:48, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Falcon CAN combo. I tried to prove the SWF wrong many times, but they're too snobby to take me serial. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 21:49, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
== I want everyone to look at this before posting... ==
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979
Now what? HUH PUNK??? - [[User:Hatake91|Hatake91]] ([[User talk:Hatake91|talk]]) 22:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
LOL nice Hatake, although i would have to disagree woth the mark that Ness has a big disadvantage against Mario. I would just say that it either a small disadvantage or neutral. [[User:Cree318|Cree318]] ([[User talk:Cree318|talk]]) 23:07, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Wow, Meta Knight has an advantage over all characters. Oh c'mon, how can this be possible? He must have at least one disadvantage. [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 13:33, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
:nope. He has what some people consider neutral matchups such as DK and Yoshi but thats it. MK also has better tournament rankings then the other top tiers combined. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 13:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
The match-ups are quite important, but I would be hesitant to use that chart as the basis.  It was only compiled as a amalgamation of comments on the forums, and not as an empirical study.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 16:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
-_- That match-up chart is inaccurate as all get out. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 23:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
:Yeh, I've never trusted in it 100%, as it changes so often.  Make up your mind!  I'm surprised that no one's noticed how few advantages Ganondorf has.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 00:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
::UPDATE: I counted 0 advantages for Ganondorf AND Capy Falcon.  Somethin' wrong with that!  Also, Meta knight has to have some disadvantage.  Why don't DK and ROB have advantages over him now?  Did the game change on me?  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 00:23, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Yes, I also saw that, even on the previous matchup chart. But Captain Falcon had an advantage over Pokemon Trainer's Squirtle, I guess. Now he has 0? And Ganondorf should have at least two advantages. I ask once again: How can this be possible? Either the matchup chart is really inaccurate or Brawl is not balanced at all. [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 13:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I think Falcon has many advantages over bigger characters like Bowser, DK, DDD, etc. They're all Knee magnets and are ridiculously easy to combo. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 17:50, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::No. I don't even think Falcon can even combo anymore. I'm not sure about Bowser but DK and D3, certainly not. They have got quicker finishers and better comboing ability than Falcon. An example of a big advantage for Falc is Ganondorf. [[User:Meteorite|Meteorite]] ([[User talk:Meteorite|talk]]) 19:50, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I can combo with Falcon. And I also do rather well against Bowsers, DK's, and D3's. And quicker finishers? D3's F-Smash is painfully slow. DK... okay, you're right about that, and maybe Bowser too. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 00:38, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
:D3 has got his down smash (which has quicker start-up time than any of Falcon's smashes), his back aerial (not sure on this one) and his up tilt it you want to a good finisher. He's also good with up smash, if you can sweet-spot it. [[User:Meteorite|Meteorite]] ([[User talk:Meteorite|talk]]) 00:59, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::It changes alot because its like the tier list, you don't get it exactly right the first time. And most of this can be supported. - [[User:Hatake91|Hatake91]] ([[User talk:Hatake91|talk]]) 21:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
:What about Captain Falcon vs Ike? Ike's attacks are powerful but slow (back air is an exception though). If Falcon can throw him out of the stage, he can use back and neutral aerials and Ike won't recover anymore. Also Ike is big so it's easy to sweetspot the knee. What do you think? [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 12:26, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
True, the air isn't Ike's best friend, but his ground game is better than Falcon's. Ike has insane priority, especially in comparison to Falcon's. However, you're right about Falcon's speed. It can prove deadly to someone as slow as Ike, and Falcon could easily edgeguard him. I'd consider this a neutral match-up. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 21:03, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
I thought that Yoshi was neutral to Meta Knight.  It still says that on the [[Yoshi (SSBB)]] page.  Also, if these match-ups are correct, then it looks like Bowser should be placed lower.  [[User:Enigmatic Mr. L|Enigmatic Mr. L]] ([[User talk:Enigmatic Mr. L|talk]])
== So what? ==
You don't have to flame people that support tiers just because you don't agree with them. As SLAPAHO [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|said]], no matter how much you hate it, its already been made, and, unless you're part of the SBR, you can't change it. They exist, and you can't change that.[[User:Smorekingxg456|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" >O,]] [[User Talk:Smorekingxg456|Mighty]] [[Special:Contributions/Smorekingxg456|Smoreking</font>]] 19:45, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
:You're right, but everyone can express their opinion about it. We cannot change it but we can discuss it. [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 19:50, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
::Or troll about it, which happens far more frequently than reason allows for.  --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">[[User:Shadowcrest|<font color="Steelblue">Shadow</font>]][[User talk:Shadowcrest|<font color="Steelblue">crest</font>]]</font> 19:55, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Well that's true. But we live in a free world. If someone wants to say so badly "This list stinks! Captain Falcon 4 top tier, u fags!", no problem. But if they get kicked out of certain forums for talking like that, it's their problem. Don't worry, be happy! :P [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 20:18, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Words of truth. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 00:05, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
==If you hate tiers so much...==
Why do you let them affect how you feel about a character in the SSB series? This are just '''statistics''', and they show how many tourny wins a character has, and the character's potential. If you can do better, great, but don't yell at people by saying "ZOMFG WTF? WHY IS CAPTAIN FALCON SO LOW??????? I CAN KICK ANYBODY'S ASS WITH HIM!!!!111ONEONEONEONE11!!!" There are two things wrong with that:
*One-You probably can't, so try facing people on wi-fi or something similar(a tourny ,maybe?!?!?!?!?!) before saying you are TEH GOD with whoever.
*Two-Most people can't, so that is why your character is so low. Think, if 10 poeple are good with Meta Knight, and 2 are good with Captain Falcon, who do you think is going to be higher on the tier list?
This has been said many times. I am stating the obvious. Now, I will brace myself to get flamed by people who disagree with me, or people who think I'm RETAWTED! fr stating the obvious.[[User:Smorekingxg456|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" >O,]] [[User Talk:Smorekingxg456|Mighty]] [[Special:Contributions/Smorekingxg456|Smoreking</font>]] 01:34, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
:This list is just showing who is easier to master in my opinion. My friend uses Meta Knight after about two days of trying him, and I win all the time when fighting it. My other friend spent his entire time playing as Captain Falcon, and I can NEVER win against him...That jerk. '''[[User:Cafinator|<span style="color:Darkorange"><small><small>CAFINATOR</small></small></span>]]''' [[User talk:Cafinator|<span style="color:brown"><small><sup>''Indeed''</sup></small></span>]] 02:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
::I disagree. The tier list measures the character's overall potential. And most of the top tier characters are not easy to master. Look at Snake, for instance. The list is based on 3 "things":
*1. The character's tourney results;
*2. The character's match-ups; `
*3. The characters potential, in other words, advantages and disadvatages, advanced techniques, etc.
It's not just a random list. Meta Knight is 1st because many people won LOTS of tourneys with him and his matchups are amazing. And he has a technique similar to Jiggs WoP in Melee. [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 02:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
:First I thought you were kidding, then I realized you weren't.
:So first I was "Wut"
:Then I was like "Lol"
:But then I serious'd. '''[[User:Cafinator|<span style="color:Darkorange"><small><small>CAFINATOR</small></small></span>]]''' [[User talk:Cafinator|<span style="color:brown"><small><sup>''Indeed''</sup></small></span>]] 02:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
::The first time I saw the Brawl tier list I also was like "WTF? Mario is low?" But then I made some research (with research I mean browsing the Smash World Forums :P) and realized that that list was actually prettey accurate. But as the metagame develops it will change. Anyways, now I know things about tiers that I never dreamed of.  [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 01:59, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
This just in: Smashboards has stated that cigarettes possess no risk of lung cancer! Should we believe them? - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 21:59, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
:Are you trying to prove my point, are you against my point, or are you just making a joke...?<span style="font-family: Liorah BT">'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color: gold">O,</span>]] [[User Talk:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color: gold">Mighty</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Smorekingxg456|<span style="color: gold">Smoreking</span>]]'''</span> 00:41, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
::I'm making a satirical joke. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 03:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
:::That's what I thought.<span style="font-family: Liorah BT">'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color: gold">O,</span>]] [[User Talk:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color: gold">Mighty</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Smorekingxg456|<span style="color: gold">Smoreking</span>]]'''</span> 13:30, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
::::Satire is one of my personal hobbies. - <font face="times new roman">[[User:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:purple">'''GalaxiaD'''</span>]]</font><font face="times new roman"> <small><sup>[[User Talk:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:black">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup></small></font> 22:53, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
== Falcon v Ganon ==
How the hell did Ganon beat Falcon!!! I mean come on Ganon is about 10 times slower than Falcon and his moves are too slow while Falcon can move pretty fast.
:But Ganon is much more powerful. His attacks have high knockback and good priority. Ganon's down aerial is one of the most powerful meteor smashes in the game, if not the most powerful. [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 16:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
::But Falcon has greater air speed, a greater dash speed, a slightly better recovery, and he takes less time to recover from his attacks than Ganon. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 23:01, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
:::True. That's why the Ganon-Falcon match-up is neutral. I personally prefer Falcon over Ganon, but facts are facts. [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 00:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
:::: Ganondorf is better then Falcon in terms of power. If speed was a contest Falcon would win. Captain Falcon's moves are fast and are hard to block. Ganondorf can actually kill fast then Falcon due to his masssive damage. Basically its equall but i still say Falcon pwns all. Who doesnt like watching Jigglyouff get FALCON PUNCHED in the face.<small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Zmario|Zmario]] ([[User talk:Zmario|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Zmario|contribs]]) </small>
:::::LOL. :P Or in those 4 player Free-For-Alls, where everyone is fighting everyone, but nobody notices that C. Falcon is not in the fray, instead he's just waiting. Suddenly: FALCON.... PUNCH!!! ... and we have some human (or animal) rockets. :D Ah... everyone needs some fun between serious matches. That's the true Smash Bros. spirit. [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 22:58, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
::::::Both can't combo. Both have zero quick killer moves aside from side smash. Both have poor recoveries. Both have laggy moves. Both have poor normal B and down B attacks. Both have bad aerial play. Both are hard to control. Both hard to use finishers (Knee Smash and up tilt). Both have bad reach and no projectile. Both have bad edgeuarding ability except for their powerful spikes. Both suck. '''[[User:Meteorite|<span style="color:gray">IT'S A METEORITE!</span>]][[User Talk:Meteorite|<small><sup><span style="color:brown">If you weren't crushed</span></sup></small>]]'''
Falcon can combo. His D-Smash, U-Smash, B-Air, and U-Air can all suffice as finishers sometimes. Falcon's recovery is okay. Falcon's lag... okay, I'll give you that. Falcon Punch and Falcon Kick are too epic. Falcon rips people to shreds in the air. Falcon is actually pretty easy to handle. Yeah, the Knee is pretty tough to land. Falcon and Ganon both have some long reaching tilts, unless your refering to their grab ranges. Falcon and Ganon can both edgeguard quite well. Yeah, Ganon's kinda lacking, but Falcon doesn't suck. - <font face="times new roman">[[User:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:purple">'''GalaxiaD'''</span>]]</font><font face="times new roman"> <small><sup>[[User Talk:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:black">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup></small></font> 23:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
:Apart from two-hit, hit-or-miss combos (like usmash into up b), name me some good combos. Dmash is a terrible finisher, up smash has poor reach (a character can ''duck'' underneath it for gods sake), back air is only good at very, very high percentages and uair isn't really that good. Falcon's recovery is easily gimpable - it's also poor at sweet-spotting. '''[[User:Meteorite|<span style="color:pink">METEORITE</span>]] ([[User talk:Meteorite|t]])
::U-Throw>U-Air>U-Air>U-Smash. There ya go. - <font face="times new roman">[[User:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:purple">'''GalaxiaD'''</span>]]</font><font face="times new roman"> <small><sup>[[User Talk:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:black">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup></small></font> 05:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
The sad fate of Falcon was decided when the first pro said he sucked.  The general population of smashers (aka n00bs) tend to follow what the pros say and do.  Therefore, when Sliq (the first true Ganon pro in SSBB FYI) decided to use Ganon, it gave the character a boost.  As far as I know, there are no notable Falcon pros.  The tier list is a big popularity contest, if you think about it.  A character has to be good to be on top, of course, but bandwagon appeal makes for only a handful characters consistently doing well in tournaments.  GXD, you're the best, and the only decent Falcon I know of.  I'd suggest you find a way to put  your stuff in You Tube if you really want to get your point across.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 06:00, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
:Well, I am getting a new computer once our tax return comes in. Maybe then my WMM will start working properly. - <font face="times new roman">[[User:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:purple">'''GalaxiaD'''</span>]]</font><font face="times new roman"> <small><sup>[[User Talk:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:black">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup></small></font> 19:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
::Tons of good Falcon players on Youtube already, watch some montages or combo videos. I've even seen a pro Captain Falcon player for SSBB alreadu. - [[User:Hatake91|Hatake91]] ([[User talk:Hatake91|talk]]) 20:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
:::But despite all that, the SBR still hasn't changed their minds. - <font face="times new roman">[[User:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:purple">'''GalaxiaD'''</span>]]</font><font face="times new roman"> <small><sup>[[User Talk:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:black">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup></small></font> 19:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
::::And I doubt they will.  I've seen people play Mewtwo and Pichu well in Melee.  It doesn't change the fact that they suck.  Same goes for both Falcon and Ganon.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 00:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
:::::But how can the character suck if there ARE people that can use them well? - <font face="times new roman">[[User:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:purple">'''GalaxiaD'''</span>]]</font><font face="times new roman"> <small><sup>[[User Talk:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:black">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup></small></font> 23:18, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
::::::If a char. sucks, you cant do anything about it. Its how the game was made. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 03:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
But MOST of the time, the character's skill is opinionated. - <font face="times new roman">[[User:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:purple">'''GalaxiaD'''</span>]]</font><font face="times new roman"> <small><sup>[[User Talk:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:black">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup></small></font> 22:26, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
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