Talk:Tier list/Archive 7: Difference between revisions

==Controversy subsections==

:The reason why these changes within the years is because it is the Smash Back Rooms that made the tier lists to keep up with how well all the characters is doing in tournaments up to date. Also, sign your comments with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> and use proper grammar. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Link OoT Dots.PNG|16px]] The Peaceful 12:24, 14 June 2014 (EDT)

::It's true that anyone can make a tier list, but it's ''widely accepted'' that those characters are among the best in the game. SmashWiki reports not only on what the SBR says, but also from unofficial sources, such as the community at large. It's different from some random person making up a tier list because a very large number of players in the community think so, and a lot of these players are professionals at the game. Before there were things such as SSBMRank, players like {{Sm|Mew2King}} and {{Sm|Mango}} were considered to be among the best ''Smash'' players in the world, even though there was no official ranking to label them so. It's the same thing here.

:::I'm well aware that we have those pages here. And, again, I'm well aware that the community holds those opinions. But this page is about the '''SBR's''' tier list, not the Japanese one. I am one who has no objections to you putting what you put on this page over [[Japanese tier list|here]], but I'd honestly wait on an admin's approval on that one. [[File:AidanzapunkSig.jpg]][[User:BlueStreak|<span style="color: blue;">'''BlueStreak'''</span>]] [[User talk:BlueStreak|<span style="color: blue;">'''Speeds By'''</span>]] 22:50, 19 January 2015 (EST)

::::This page is not supposed to be exclusively about the SBR tier list, and if it is, it shouldn't be that way. This article is about tiers and tier lists in general; the SBR tier lists are put here because they are the ones most widely accepted by the community; even people in Japan and Latin America usually refer to the SBR's tier lists. If the Japanese tier list was the most widely trusted source, it would be listed here instead of the SBR tier list.  

::::::::::::''"Just say "Diddy is good"? That's not representative of the overall relative strengths of the roster. How many characters do we say are top tier, and how many do we leave out? And on whose authority if not the SBR?"''

::::::::::::This is not some random "somebody" who thinks that Diddy Kong is the best character in the game; there is a '''''widespread consensus''''' in the Smash community that Diddy Kong is one of the best characters in Smash 4. If you bothered to look in the competitive community every once in a while, you would see all the posts about people complaining about how OP Diddy Kong is, and people making their own tier lists with Diddy Kong at the top. Mew2King even posted addressing the people complaining that Diddy Kong should be banned from tournaments. You'd also learn that there are a bunch of other characters people think to be top tier just under Diddy Kong: Sheik, Yoshi, Zero Suit Samus, and Mii Brawler. Most of the other characters are considered to be not top tier and on a significantly lower level than the others. The community basically decided the top tier characters, not myself or SmashWiki. SmashWiki does not determine what the best characters in the game are; we '''report''' on what the community thinks. An encyclopedia sentence would be "Diddy Kong is the best character in the game," it would be "A large amount of Smash 4 community members believe that Diddy Kong is the best character in Smash 4." Not everything needs a tier list to be factually accurate. You can judge this based on the huge community response. Do you see any other characters frequently being called out as the best character in the game other than Diddy Kong?

::::::::::::''"And I feel I have to re-iterate: this page is about '''''tier lists'''''. You seem to be assuming it has a much broader scope than it does."''

::::::::::::The fact that many community members think Diddy Kong is a top tier character is related to the '''''tier list.''''' Stating who people think the top tier characters are is a fact about the '''''tier list'''''. The SBR tier list literally ''discusses the characters people think are the best in the game.'' Saying "Many people think..........is a top tier character" is ''discussing the characters people think are the best in the game.'' Why should we arbitrarily exclude anything that isn't an "official" SBR tier list? [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 18:02, 23 January 2015 (EST)

:::::::::::::You did not address either of my points whatsoever. I'm not disputing Diddy's competitive success. What I am disputing, however, is the idea that we should report that outside the context of an actual tier list. Again, where do you draw the line? Do we list the top three characters? Top five? Top ten? Who do you cite as a source? How are you determining your consensus on the subject? You even mention Mii Brawler, and yet many tournaments have blanket bans on Mii Fighters altogether. There's massive amounts of ambiguity and reporting such an incomplete, hazy picture as if it were definite is a hugely bad idea.

:::::::::::::Also, "so-and-so is a top tier character" is not relevant to a tier '''''list'''''. A tier list includes all characters in the roster ranked relative to their competitive viability, successes, and potential. Attempting to define a character as "top tier" outside of a complete tier list is meaningless. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 18:15, 23 January 2015 (EST)

:You know Miles, what really irks me, is that in all the times I posted here, I responded to all the points you mentioned above, and yet in all the times you posted (usually a couple of sentences), you never provided any attempts at replying to what I said about your arguments. You just keep repeating everything that you say and expect me to listen, even though you don't provide any reasoning. Don't expect things to end in your favor if you never respond to anything the other people say and just keep echoing the same statements over and over again, without trying to back your points up. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 10:51, 24 January 2015 (EST)

::I am quite thoroughly reading your walls of text. The issue is that you are continually sidestepping the central points I am trying to make clear to you. There is at this time no single, complete SSB4 tier list produced by a representative group knowledgeable about the state of the game's competitive scene and metagame. There are no "generally accepted tier positions for every single character in the game" yet. And the titling of this article is deliberate because the page has a very specific scope which you are brazenly attempting to expand by a large amount. If you have specific citations to disprove those first two points, you're more than welcome to share them. As for the third point, that's not changing unless you can provide a much more convincing argument. Otherwise, you are wasting your time and mine. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 11:01, 24 January 2015 (EST)

I feel that I need to point out that a tier list is not necessarily ordered based on what characters are the "best". Maybe the tier list could be based on that, but it could also be based on what characters are "more likely to succeed". If X is the theoretically best character, but requires insane tech skill to reach that level, then they probably won't win all the tournaments and so may not deserve being at the top of the tier list. We can't make that call. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Quintonic 11:12, 24 January 2015 (EST)