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Ice Climbers (SSBB): Difference between revisions
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The Ice Climbers have many different options to perform an infinite chaingrab. They can use any combination of forward throw, down throw, and back throw, but each option has different timings for every character. For example, against {{SSBB|Meta Knight}} it is most common for players to infinite using a combination of down throw and back throw, as these two throws have the largest time windows to achieve a regrab. Against large characters that are difficult to chaingrab, like {{SSBB|Snake}} and {{SSBB|R.O.B.}}, the down throw can be used in conjunction with the footstool hop and ice shots for another infinite: the hobble. A hobble is performed when the Ice Climbers' down throw sends opponents into the air, the second Ice Climber jumps and footstools the opponent back onto the ground, and as the opponent bounces, the first Ice Climber traps them with an ice shot causing a reset for another grab. The only possible break to a perfectly executed infinite is Brawl's random [[tripping]], which can occur if either climber dashes for any length of time. This can be avoided by only performing infinite chaingrabs while walking. When a chain grab has raised an opponent's damage enough, the most typically used move to KO the opponent is their [[up smash]], if a forward air meteor smash is inapplicable. All of these chain throws can be considered [[Zero-to-death combo|0-KO combos]]. | The Ice Climbers have many different options to perform an infinite chaingrab. They can use any combination of forward throw, down throw, and back throw, but each option has different timings for every character. For example, against {{SSBB|Meta Knight}} it is most common for players to infinite using a combination of down throw and back throw, as these two throws have the largest time windows to achieve a regrab. Against large characters that are difficult to chaingrab, like {{SSBB|Snake}} and {{SSBB|R.O.B.}}, the down throw can be used in conjunction with the footstool hop and ice shots for another infinite: the hobble. A hobble is performed when the Ice Climbers' down throw sends opponents into the air, the second Ice Climber jumps and footstools the opponent back onto the ground, and as the opponent bounces, the first Ice Climber traps them with an ice shot causing a reset for another grab. The only possible break to a perfectly executed infinite is Brawl's random [[tripping]], which can occur if either climber dashes for any length of time. This can be avoided by only performing infinite chaingrabs while walking. When a chain grab has raised an opponent's damage enough, the most typically used move to KO the opponent is their [[up smash]], if a forward air meteor smash is inapplicable. All of these chain throws can be considered [[Zero-to-death combo|0-KO combos]]. | ||
For further two-in-one tricks, it is even possible to de-synchronize or "desync" the CPU partner by confusing it with erratic movement (such as [[dash-dancing]]), putting the player in control of both Climbers for as long as they are capable of maintaining it. Once the partner is desynced, the player can have it perform any move while the main Climber is in the middle of one, providing for all sorts of possible attack strategies that can be exceedingly difficult for opponents to escape from (alternating Blizzard, alternating Ice Shot). While desynced, the partner Climber has restrained movement within an invisible box around the main Climber; should they be separated or removed from this box, the CPU will take over again. This invisible box makes it so that if the player desyncs from the AI so that it charges a smash attack and they start walking or running away, the AI will slide in the player's direction while charging the smash. A unique thing that the player can do when desynced is that if they desync the AI to charge a smash attack, their Belay will cancel the AI's charging sequence and teleport it into the belaying sequence. Such techniques are extremely difficult to perform in combat, even for advanced players, due to the constant string of precise commands required for the Climbers to move/attack as intended. Nevertheless, these techniques are considered the backbone of playing the Ice Climbers at a competitive level. | For further two-in-one tricks, it is even possible to de-synchronize or "desync" the CPU partner by confusing it with erratic movement (such as [[dash-dancing]]), putting the player in control of both Climbers for as long as they are capable of maintaining it. Once the partner is desynced, the player can have it perform any move while the main Climber is in the middle of one, providing for all sorts of possible attack strategies that can be exceedingly difficult for opponents to escape from (alternating Blizzard, alternating Ice Shot). While desynced, the partner Climber has restrained movement within an invisible box around the main Climber; should they be separated or removed from this box, the CPU will take over again. This invisible box makes it so that if the player desyncs from the AI so that it charges a smash attack and they start walking or running away, the AI will slide in the player's direction while charging the smash. A unique thing that the player can do when desynced is that if they desync the AI to charge a smash attack, their Belay will cancel the AI's charging sequence and teleport it into the belaying sequence. Such techniques are extremely difficult to perform in combat, even for advanced players, due to the constant string of precise commands required for the Climbers to move/attack as intended. Nevertheless, these techniques are considered the backbone of playing the Ice Climbers at a competitive level. | ||
==Changes from ''[[Super Smash Bros. Melee]]''== | ==Changes from ''[[Super Smash Bros. Melee]]''== | ||
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===Aesthetics=== | ===Aesthetics=== | ||
*{{change|As with all characters, the Ice Climbers have received a drastic boost in quality, with their parkas having higher quality textures.}} | *{{change|As with all characters, the Ice Climbers have received a drastic boost in quality, with their parkas having higher quality textures.}} | ||
*{{change|The Ice Climbers have two new alternate costumes and Nana's orange costume is replaced with a blue one to make her look almost identical to Popo. One new costume has them in white while the other has Nana in black and Popo in grey. The player takes control of Popo in the blue skin and Nana in the new white and black skins.}} | *{{change|The Ice Climbers have two new alternate costumes and Nana's orange costume is replaced with a blue one to make her look almost identical to Popo. One new costume has them in white while the other has Nana in black and Popo in grey. The player takes control of Popo in the blue skin and Nana in the new white and black skins.}} | ||
*{{change|The red Nana blue Popo costume has darker colors, and Nana's yellow costume uses a much darker variant of yellow.}} | *{{change|The red Nana blue Popo costume has darker colors, and Nana's yellow costume uses a much darker variant of yellow.}} | ||
*{{change|Nana no longer switches positions on the character selection screen in costumes where she is the leader}} | *{{change|Nana no longer switches positions on the character selection screen in costumes where she is the leader}} | ||
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*{{change|As with other returning veterans, the Ice Climbers' [[falling speed]] was reduced (1.6 → 1.2). Compared to the returning veterans, however, the Ice Climbers fall faster. While this improves their endurance, it worsens their recovery and makes them more vulnerable to combos and chain grabs relative to the cast.}} | *{{change|As with other returning veterans, the Ice Climbers' [[falling speed]] was reduced (1.6 → 1.2). Compared to the returning veterans, however, the Ice Climbers fall faster. While this improves their endurance, it worsens their recovery and makes them more vulnerable to combos and chain grabs relative to the cast.}} | ||
*{{change|The Ice Climbers' gravity is lower (0.1 → 0.077). While this slightly hinders their vertical endurance, it also makes them less vulnerable to chain grabs.}} | *{{change|The Ice Climbers' gravity is lower (0.1 → 0.077). While this slightly hinders their vertical endurance, it also makes them less vulnerable to chain grabs.}} | ||
*{{buff|The Ice Climbers' [[traction]] has been unchanged (0.035). Comparing with the returning veterans, however, the Climbers' traction is higher, making it easier for them to punish out of shield although it remains the second lowest traction in the game. Their traction remains unchanged on ice which is even more effective than in Melee as traction was decreased across the board in ''Brawl''. They are also immune to [[tripping]] on ice while the rest of the cast has a higher chance of tripping on ice.}} | *{{buff|The Ice Climbers' [[traction]] has been unchanged (0.035). Comparing with the returning veterans, however, the Climbers' traction is higher, making it easier for them to punish out of shield although it remains the second lowest traction in the game. Their traction remains unchanged on ice which is even more effective than in Melee as traction was decreased across the board in ''Brawl''. They are also immune to [[tripping]] on ice while the rest of the cast has a higher chance of tripping on ice.}} | ||
*{{change|The Ice Climbers are heavier (88 → 92).}} | *{{change|The Ice Climbers are heavier (88 → 92).}} | ||
*{{nerf|[[Jump]]squat is longer (3 frames → 4).}} | *{{nerf|[[Jump]]squat is longer (3 frames → 4).}} | ||
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**{{nerf|Both hits of neutral attack have more ending lag (FAF 16 → 27 (hit 1), frame 18 → 20 (hit 2)).}} | **{{nerf|Both hits of neutral attack have more ending lag (FAF 16 → 27 (hit 1), frame 18 → 20 (hit 2)).}} | ||
*[[Forward tilt]]: | *[[Forward tilt]]: | ||
**{{buff|Forward tilt deals more damage (8% → 9% (solo), 15% → 16% (non angled with partner) 18% (angled with partner)) although its base knockback was compensated on the up angled version (40 → 30). The non angled version also has higher base knockback (26 → 30) and the partner's version has less hitlag (1x → 0.5x).}} | **{{buff|Forward tilt deals more damage (8% → 9% (solo), 15% → 16% (non angled with partner) 18% (angled with partner)) although its base knockback was compensated on the up angled version (40 → 30). The non angled version also has higher base knockback (26 → 30) and the partner's version has less hitlag (1x → 0.5x).}} | ||
**{{nerf|Forward tilt has more startup lag (frame 6 → 9) and ending lag (FAF 28 → 32).}} | **{{nerf|Forward tilt has more startup lag (frame 6 → 9) and ending lag (FAF 28 → 32).}} | ||
*[[Up tilt]]: | *[[Up tilt]]: | ||
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**{{nerf|Up tilt's final hit deals less damage (7% → 4%) with no compensation on its knockback and up tilt has more ending lag (FAF 42 → 48).}} | **{{nerf|Up tilt's final hit deals less damage (7% → 4%) with no compensation on its knockback and up tilt has more ending lag (FAF 42 → 48).}} | ||
*[[Down tilt]]: | *[[Down tilt]]: | ||
**{{buff|Down tilt deals more damage (4-5% → 6%), has higher base knockback (30 → 40) and now sends opponents in a semi spike angle as opposed to a more vertical angle (70° → 20°). While this hinders its combo potential, it significantly improves its edgeguarding potential (which is overall more useful due to the introduction of [[hitstun canceling]]). It also connects much more reliably when both climbers are present.}} | **{{buff|Down tilt deals more damage (4-5% → 6%), has higher base knockback (30 → 40) and now sends opponents in a semi spike angle as opposed to a more vertical angle (70° → 20°). While this hinders its combo potential, it significantly improves its edgeguarding potential (which is overall more useful due to the introduction of [[hitstun canceling]]). It also connects much more reliably when both climbers are present.}} | ||
**{{nerf|Down tilt has more ending lag (FAF 29 → 31).}} | **{{nerf|Down tilt has more ending lag (FAF 29 → 31).}} | ||
*[[Dash attack]]: | *[[Dash attack]]: | ||
**{{nerf|Dash attack deals less damage (9% → 6%) although its knockback scaling was compensated (40 → 60). It also has more ending lag (FAF 38 → 41).}} | **{{nerf|Dash attack deals less damage (9% → 6%) although its knockback scaling was compensated (40 → 60). It also has more ending lag (FAF 38 → 41).}} | ||
*[[Forward smash]]: | *[[Forward smash]]: | ||
**{{buff|Forward smash has less startup lag (frame 13 → 12) and the sourspot deals more damage (10% → 12%). The partner's forward smash also has more knockback scaling (105 → 118).}} | **{{buff|Forward smash has less startup lag (frame 13 → 12) and the sourspot deals more damage (10% → 12%). The partner's forward smash also has more knockback scaling (105 → 118).}} | ||
**{{nerf|Forward smash's sweetspot deals less damage (14% → 13%) and both hits have less base knockback (40 → 30). It also has slightly increased ending lag (FAF 47 → 48).}} | **{{nerf|Forward smash's sweetspot deals less damage (14% → 13%) and both hits have less base knockback (40 → 30). It also has slightly increased ending lag (FAF 47 → 48).}} | ||
*[[Up smash]]: | *[[Up smash]]: | ||
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===Throws/other attacks=== | ===Throws/other attacks=== | ||
*[[Grab]]s: | *[[Grab]]s: | ||
**{{buff|Standing grab has less startup lag (frame 7 → 6).}} | **{{buff|Standing grab has less startup lag (frame 7 → 6).}} | ||
**{{nerf|Dash grab has more startup lag (frame 7 → 8).}} | **{{nerf|Dash grab has more startup lag (frame 7 → 8).}} | ||
**{{buff|The partner is now controlled by the player rather than the AI when grabbing a foe, enabling the player to effectively control the direction in which to throw the foe, significantly extending chaingrabs and allowing for easy kill setups. This means that despite the removal of [[Wobbling]], the Ice Climbers can still effectively [[zero-death]] the entire cast which while more difficult to perform, it still remains inescapable and is overall more versatile.}} | **{{buff|The partner is now controlled by the player rather than the AI when grabbing a foe, enabling the player to effectively control the direction in which to throw the foe, significantly extending chaingrabs and allowing for easy kill setups. This means that despite the removal of [[Wobbling]], the Ice Climbers can still effectively [[zero-death]] the entire cast which while more difficult to perform, it still remains inescapable and is overall more versatile.}} | ||
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|dashname= | |dashname= | ||
|dashdmg=6% (leader), 4% (partner) | |dashdmg=6% (leader), 4% (partner) | ||
|dashdesc=Leaps forward and swings their hammers in front of themselves. | |dashdesc=Leaps forward and swings their hammers in front of themselves. | ||
|fsmashname= | |fsmashname= | ||
|fsmashdmg={{ChargedSmashDmgSSBB|13}}/{{ChargedSmashDmgSSBB|12}} (leader), {{ChargedSmashDmgSSBB|10}}/{{ChargedSmashDmgSSBB|9}} (partner) | |fsmashdmg={{ChargedSmashDmgSSBB|13}}/{{ChargedSmashDmgSSBB|12}} (leader), {{ChargedSmashDmgSSBB|10}}/{{ChargedSmashDmgSSBB|9}} (partner) | ||
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|game=Brawl | |game=Brawl | ||
|desc-us=Na-Na! Po-po | |desc-us=Na-Na! Po-po | ||
|desc-jp=Ice-cli-mer! | |desc-jp=Ice-cli-mer! | ||
|pitch-us=High female, then Deep male | |pitch-us=High female, then Deep male | ||
|pitch-jp=Group chant}} | |pitch-jp=Group chant}} | ||
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*{{Sm|lain|USA}} - A nationally dominant player during his peak from 2009-2010. | *{{Sm|lain|USA}} - A nationally dominant player during his peak from 2009-2010. | ||
*{{Sm|Miyacchi|Japan}} - Defeated players such as 9B, Smasher, Nagahari, Earth, OCEAN, Suinoko, Shu, Kei and Masashi. | *{{Sm|Miyacchi|Japan}} - Defeated players such as 9B, Smasher, Nagahari, Earth, OCEAN, Suinoko, Shu, Kei and Masashi. | ||
*{{Sm|Nakat|USA}} - Quickly rose as a top Ice Climbers player in 2013, with a 4th place at [[SKTAR 2]] and wins over {{Sm|Mew2King}}, {{Sm|Anti}}, {{Sm|Nairo}}, and {{Sm|ZeRo}}. | *{{Sm|Nakat|USA}} - Quickly rose as a top Ice Climbers player in 2013, with a 4th place at [[SKTAR 2]] and wins over {{Sm|Mew2King}}, {{Sm|Anti}}, {{Sm|Nairo}}, and {{Sm|ZeRo}}. | ||
*{{Sm|Vinnie|USA}} - A nationally dominant player in the later stages of ''Brawl'''s life, after switching to Ice Climbers from {{SSBB|Mr. Game & Watch}}. | *{{Sm|Vinnie|USA}} - A nationally dominant player in the later stages of ''Brawl'''s life, after switching to Ice Climbers from {{SSBB|Mr. Game & Watch}}. | ||
*{{Sm|Yunon|Japan}} - Defeated players such as Shu, Kuroobi, and RAIN. | *{{Sm|Yunon|Japan}} - Defeated players such as Shu, Kuroobi, and RAIN. | ||
===Tier placement and history=== | ===Tier placement and history=== | ||
In the first few years of ''Brawl'' | In the first few years of ''Brawl''{{'}}s metagame, the Ice Climbers were only ranked in mid-high tier, given their poor fighting abilities and vulnerability when the partner Climber dies, and their powerful grab tactics were unrecognized at the time. However, Ice Climber players soon began to utilize their infinite [[chaingrab]]s, giving them an extremely powerful zero-to-death option against any other character. Players soon found the technique difficult to handle, as it completely changed the way players fought the Ice Climbers. The Ice Climbers matchup now involved avoiding getting grabbed into a death, which can be difficult to avoid, and the Ice Climbers were able to completely shut down characters who lacked effective tactics to deal with the zero-death chaingrabs. Because of this, the Ice Climbers quickly shot up the ranks, rising to #5 in [[List of SSBB tier lists (NTSC)#Fourth tier list (February 26, 2010)|the fourth tier list]] (February 2010), and remaining in top tier; the Ice Climbers then rose to 2nd place on the current tier list, placed right underneath {{SSBB|Meta Knight}} in their own tier above the rest of the characters. Some players even argue that since the Ice Climbers have access to a zero-death on every character that works at any percent, they could be tied for first place with Meta Knight, or could even be first place themselves. The Ice Climbers are among the most disliked characters in ''Brawl'' by both casual and competitive players, since they possess a zero-death option against any character, something no other character has access to, and they have been considered [[cheap]] and [[broken]], with many players supporting the ban of the infinite chaingrabs in tournaments; however, with the definition of what construes an "infinite chaingrab" usually being rigid, players of the Ice Climbers have found many loopholes to avoid using it while still nearly securing stocks with each grab, making opponents' predicaments effectively the same. Many recent tournaments in the post-''Smash-4'' era, such as [[Glitch 2]], have even banned the Ice Climbers altogether, due to their unpopularity among opponents and spectators alike. | ||
==Role in [[The Subspace Emissary]]== | ==Role in [[The Subspace Emissary]]== | ||
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The Ice Climbers' main and [[Final Smash]] trophies can be obtained by clearing {{SSBB|Classic Mode}} and [[All-Star]] mode respectively with the Ice Climbers. | The Ice Climbers' main and [[Final Smash]] trophies can be obtained by clearing {{SSBB|Classic Mode}} and [[All-Star]] mode respectively with the Ice Climbers. | ||
{{Trophy/Fighter | |||
|name=Ice Climbers | |||
|image=Ice Climbers - Brawl Trophy.png | |||
|mode=Classic | |||
|desc=The one in blue is Popo, and the one in pink is Nana. They use their incredible jumping powers and hammers to break blocks and climb to the summit. They grab veggies, and if they can catch the condor at the end, they conquer the mountain. Other than breaking blocks, their hammers are good for sending foes flying, climbing down from blocks, and destroying icicles. | |||
|gamelist={{Trophy games|console1=NES|game1={{b|Ice Climber|game}}}} | |||
|game=Brawl | |||
}} | |||
{{clrl}} | |||
{{Trophy | {{Trophy/Fighter | ||
|name=Iceberg | |||
|image=Iceberg - Brawl Trophy.png | |||
|desc=The Ice Climbers' Final Smash. This giant ice mountain appears in the middle of a stage--it's incredibly slippery, so it's hard to control yourself when traversing it. In addition to being slick, this ice is also COLD, so opponents will take damage just from touching it. Attack the ice, and it will take damage and slowly shrink. Is it actually useful? That's a mystery. | |||
|gamelist={{Trophy games|console1=Wii|game1=Super Smash Bros. Brawl}} | |||
{{Trophy games|console1=Wii|game1=Super Smash Bros. Brawl}} | |game=Brawl | ||
}} | |||
{{clrl}} | |||
==[[Alternate costume (SSBB)#Ice Climbers|Alternate costumes]]== | ==[[Alternate costume (SSBB)#Ice Climbers|Alternate costumes]]== | ||
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**If one looks carefully, Nana can actually be seen smirking while crying while Popo is frowning. This is fixed in ''[[Ultimate]]''. | **If one looks carefully, Nana can actually be seen smirking while crying while Popo is frowning. This is fixed in ''[[Ultimate]]''. | ||
*In Stamina mode, it is possible for the partner to die before the leader. Regardless of whether this happens or not, the partner will lay on the ground motionless, but not blink red. | *In Stamina mode, it is possible for the partner to die before the leader. Regardless of whether this happens or not, the partner will lay on the ground motionless, but not blink red. | ||
*If the partner is caught in a trapping [[Final Smash]] and the leader is KO'd, the partner will disappear, leaving the opponent attacking nothing. Some examples are {{SSBB|Ike}}'s, {{SSBB|Meta Knight}}'s, {{SSBB|Link}}'s, and {{SSBB|Toon Link}}'s, and [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZBtchSyaUc as seen here. | *If the partner is caught in a trapping [[Final Smash]] and the leader is KO'd, the partner will disappear, leaving the opponent attacking nothing. Some examples are {{SSBB|Ike}}'s, {{SSBB|Meta Knight}}'s, {{SSBB|Link}}'s, and {{SSBB|Toon Link}}'s, and [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZBtchSyaUc as seen here]. | ||
*Both Ice Climbers must win a microgame in the [[WarioWare, Inc.]] stage to be rewarded. | *Both Ice Climbers must win a microgame in the [[WarioWare, Inc.]] stage to be rewarded. | ||
*Certain Final Smashes, especially trapping ones, can cause the trailing Ice Climber's special effects to be slowed down under the effect of a [[Timer]] (Nana's stays even after the Timer is done). The effects end when one or both of the Ice Climbers are KO'd. | *Certain Final Smashes, especially trapping ones, can cause the trailing Ice Climber's special effects to be slowed down under the effect of a [[Timer]] (Nana's stays even after the Timer is done). The effects end when one or both of the Ice Climbers are KO'd. | ||
*When CPU controlled, if one Ice Climber is [[Star KO]]'d, the partner will sometimes [[taunt]]. | *When CPU controlled, if one Ice Climber is [[Star KO]]'d, the partner will sometimes [[taunt]]. | ||
*''[[Brawl]]'' is the only game where the portraits of the Ice Climbers are not swapped around when Nana is in the lead, the only game where their default costume is not available in [[Team Battle]]s and the only game where Nana takes the lead in all even numbered costumes. | *''[[Brawl]]'' is the only game where the portraits of the Ice Climbers are not swapped around when Nana is in the lead, the only game where their default costume is not available in [[Team Battle]]s and the only game where Nana takes the lead in all even numbered costumes. | ||