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== Ness and Captain Falcon in SSB == | == Ness and Captain Falcon in SSB == | ||
Since the concept of pseudo-clones has been introduced, I was wondering if Captain Falcon and Ness in Smash 64 fit in this category. Based on the definition of a pseudo-clone on the page, it seems like they probably should be considered pseudo-clones of Samus and Mario, respectively. They're definitely unique enough to not be semi-clones, but since some of their moves are derived from Samus and Mario, should they go into this category? I could be wrong about this, but I think Captain Falcon in SSB shares more moves with Samus than Wolf in Ultimate shares with Fox. Captain Falcon and Ness are definitely unique characters in every game since Melee, but can they be considered Pseudo-clones of Samus and Mario respectively in Smash 64? | Since the concept of pseudo-clones has been introduced, I was wondering if Captain Falcon and Ness in Smash 64 fit in this category. Based on the definition of a pseudo-clone on the page, it seems like they probably should be considered pseudo-clones of Samus and Mario, respectively. They're definitely unique enough to not be semi-clones, but since some of their moves are derived from Samus and Mario, should they go into this category? I could be wrong about this, but I think Captain Falcon in SSB shares more moves with Samus than Wolf in Ultimate shares with Fox. Captain Falcon and Ness are definitely unique characters in every game since Melee, but can they be considered Pseudo-clones of Samus and Mario respectively in Smash 64? <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:47.41.244.226|47.41.244.226]] ([[User talk:47.41.244.226|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/47.41.244.226|contribs]]) 14:20, February 11, 2019</small> | ||
:According to [[User:Toomai/Cloneosity|this list]], Samus and Captain Falcon share about 22% of their moves, which is not enough for pseudo-clone, wihc is 30%. Ness and Mario most likely have a much less similarity percent. So no, both aren't pseudo clones. [[User:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><span style="color: red;">SugarCookie</span></span>]] [[User talk:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Impact"><span style="color: green;">420</span></span>]] 13:21, 19 February 2019 (EST) | :According to [[User:Toomai/Cloneosity|this list]], Samus and Captain Falcon share about 22% of their moves, which is not enough for pseudo-clone, wihc is 30%. Ness and Mario most likely have a much less similarity percent. So no, both aren't pseudo clones. [[User:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><span style="color: red;">SugarCookie</span></span>]] [[User talk:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Impact"><span style="color: green;">420</span></span>]] 13:21, 19 February 2019 (EST) | ||
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Each of the Mii Fighters borrow moves from different characters (such as Mii Gunner sharing moves with Fox and Samus, The Mii Sword Fighter sharing spacials and Arials with Link and Marth, or Mii Brawler sharing special moves with Little Mac) I was wondering if any of the Mii fighters share enough moves to be a Pseudo-Clone or to at least make not of on the page [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 14:30, 6 March 2019 (EST) | Each of the Mii Fighters borrow moves from different characters (such as Mii Gunner sharing moves with Fox and Samus, The Mii Sword Fighter sharing spacials and Arials with Link and Marth, or Mii Brawler sharing special moves with Little Mac) I was wondering if any of the Mii fighters share enough moves to be a Pseudo-Clone or to at least make not of on the page [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 14:30, 6 March 2019 (EST) | ||
== The Ganondorf, Young Link, Pichu, and SSB4 Luigi debate == | |||
These four have arguably been in two categories. While they share some of their moveset with another character, Ganondorf and SSB4 Luigi are on the brim, and Young Link is arguably moreso based on the older iteration of Link rather than the current one. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 09:10, 7 March 2019 (EST) | |||
===Ganondorf is a Semi-Clone=== | |||
#Ganondorf is close, but he is still quite solidly a semi-clone. He still has cloned moves for 4/5 aerials, 3/4 throws, and 3/5 specials; Luigi has 1/4 throws and 3/5 specials, Wolf has 2/5 aerials and 0/4 throws, and Lucas has 0/5 aerials and 0/4 throws. Sure Ganondorf's ground attacks are fairly unique now, but he still has a lot of Falcon baggage that the other pseudo-clones don't. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brazen 16:32, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
#:Again I think a major problem with your argument is you're conflating superficial similarities in animations with the moves themselves being similar, and also only looking at it as a Ganondorf copies Falcon scenario when in fact that's not really the case. For instance let's consider up air, sure they are superficially similar, they're both flip kicks, but this falls apart for 2 reasons: 1 is that '''A LOT''' of characters have this type of up air; it's not really a case of Ganondorf copying Falcon so much as it is Ganondorf, Falcon and many other characters copying Mario. 2 is that beyond the superficial similarities, the moves are very different. For a start the animations actually differ quite a bit from each other, and the function of the moves is also completely different. There will always be move archetypes that are similar between multiple characters, because particularly for human or humanoid characters, there are only so many reasonable ways in which they can attack in certain directions, but beyond a very superficial level, Ganondorf and Falcon are very different indeed. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 16:56, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
#::Well, to be completely fair, a cloned move having the same animation as an attack but having a difference in what specifically it does is not uncommon amongst clones. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''the Irish Rurouni'''</span>]] 17:16, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
#:::True, but there comes a point where the move is so different in function that it may as well not even be the same move anymore (such as Ganondorf’s up tilt). At that point, it likely took almost as much work to change its frame data, change its knockback, change its damage, its particle effects, and most of all, the intent of balancing a character. Forgive me for sounding a bit like Memoryman here, but the function of the move is meaningful in some ways. They just can’t be minor like Dr. Mario’s or Lucina’s. Ganondorf’s are completely different. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 18:40, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
#::::From where are you getting this assertion that function can be meaningful if it's different past "a point"? And how does one ''measure'' this point? | |||
#::::You also seem unaware of the vast difference in effort between animation work and fighter script work. Frame data, knockback, damage, and so on take effectively no effort at all. Graphic effects may or may not take extra effort depending on whether the desired effect already exists. But animation can easily take an order of magnitude longer simply because it's much more complex a task. (I'm ignoring the "balance" comment because it's not relevant for this specific case; Ganondorf isn't an echo and thus was always going to have as much balance effort as any other character.) [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Sphere 19:46, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
#:The animation similarities between Ganondorf's and Falcon's up aerials are more than "superficial". Look at [https://imgur.com/w5Esn0p.gif this (ugly) gif I made] - the positions of the non-kick leg, the arms, the post-attack lag pose, they're not identical but they're a lot more similar than coincidental. It seems reasonably clear that while they might not be "copy-paste-alter" like a full clone or a less-distinct semi-clone, many of Ganondorf's moves are still strongly derived from Falcon's, and that's the whole thing of being a clone. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Golden 18:02, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
===Ganondorf is a Pseudo-Clone=== | |||
# Ganondorf is exactly at 50% on the Cloneosity list. However, there isn’t a single semi-clone who has such polarizing differences on moves with the exact same animation. For example, despite Ganondorf’s up tilt having the exact same animation, it’s drastically different from Falcon’s in every other way. There comes a point where changing the move’s properties takes up more time than changing its animations. Ganondorf is much more unique than the other listed semi-clones as well (Ken, Isabelle, Falco, Roy, and Toon Link). [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 09:10, 7 March 2019 (EST) | |||
# I was never really fond of how cloneosity rates characters, and Ganondorf has a significant number of moves which are different from Falcon's, and most of those that aren't vary so drastically in function that comparing them would be laughable. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 09:17, 7 March 2019 (EST) | |||
# He rates them based on their animation rather than physics. It's debatable if this is the best method but I figured I would clear this confusion up. [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 09:47, 7 March 2019 (EST) | |||
#Following the cloneosity chart to a T is not exactly the best idea, because it's mostly done as a side thing and not to be taken hardcore. With that said, Ganondorf has been Luigified over the years, and I think that there's enough differences in Ultimate to make this claim. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''the Irish Rurouni'''</span>]] 11:05, 7 March 2019 (EST) | |||
#Ganondorf arguably (or maybe not) had the most changes done to him than any other clone in ''Ultimate''. He still retains Captain Falcon's specials in terms of appearance (mechanics are a bit different), but everything else is completely different. [[User:Alex95|Alex95]] ([[User talk:Alex95|talk]]) 16:22, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
# There's no reason not to classify Ganon as a pseudo-clone; he's very comparable to Luigi and Wolf. Many of his animations and attacks are completely different, and even the similar moves have entirely different functions. [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 19:38, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
===Young Link is a Full Clone=== | |||
#Young Link is still a full clone. A mirrored sword hand is actually a lot less effort than you might think; after all, SSBU mirrors animations in real-time for some characters. With that removed from the equation, he only has a unique neutral attack, dash attack, and Final Smash - everything else is still identical, and all other semi-clones have at least five unique moves. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brazen 16:32, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
#:If that’s the case, why is Roy’s forward smash a “different” move if all that’s different animation-wise is that he holds his sword with two hands instead of one? [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 18:36, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
#::Roy's f-smash is not just different from Marth's by number of arms on sword (which, depending on how exactly it's done, could arguably a significant enough difference by itself to mean "not a clone animation"). Roy also takes a step forward during the swing and makes a follow-through around his body instead of whacking his sword on the ground. It's not comparable to mirroring animations. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Sphere 19:46, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
#:::If Roy twisting his body factored into his forward smash being a different move, then Young Link is the same case. Despite holding thwir swords in opposite hands, they face the same direction. Thus, Link twists his body forwards in order for him to even strike an opponent. Your definiton of what exactly qualities as a different animation is a bit wonky to be honest. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 20:18, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
#::::Please read my comments more carefully. I never said anything about Roy "twisting". And the way you talk about Link and Young Link tells me you don't understand how "mirroring" works. You may need to do some research in training mode. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] El Pollo 20:57, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
===Young Link is a Semi-Clone=== | |||
# Young Link’s bow and bombs act differently than Link’s. Additionally, while the Echo Fighter label is incredibly inconsistent, Young Link is definitely not in the same vein of a clone as Pichu or Dr. Mario. He has a different dash attack, and all of his animations are altered because they hold their swords in opposite hands. Roy’s Forward Smash is counted as a different move just because he holds it with two hands. Why would most of Young Link’s moves not? Also, like I said with Ganondorf, there comes a point where changing the physics of a character is more work han changing their animations. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 09:10, 7 March 2019 (EST) | |||
#Young Link is clearly still based on Melee Link, which has differences from both Brawl Link (which Toon Link is based on) and Ultimate Link. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''the Irish Rurouni'''</span>]] 11:05, 7 March 2019 (EST) | |||
#While Young Link can be regarded as a clone in ''Melee'', he's definitely more of a semi-clone now in ''Ultimate'' due to Link's changes. Same with Toon Link. They're both semi-clones of Link, but aren't clones of each other, if that makes sense. [[User:Alex95|Alex95]] ([[User talk:Alex95|talk]]) 16:22, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
# The gameplay differences are very numerous, especially with the changes Link received in ''Ultimate''. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 18:49, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
# As said before, Young Link is now more a semi-clone than a full clone because he hasn't changed much from ''Melee'', whereas Link has been distinguished further and further. Even aside from being mirrored, Link's ''Breath of the Wild'' incarnation has more unique properties (the Remote Bombs, sword beams from the forward smash, and altered animations for attacks like the up tilt) that make him very distinct from Young Link. [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 19:38, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
===Pichu is a Full Clone=== | |||
# I’ve seen people argue that Pichu is a semi-clone, but I personally think he shares enough moves to be a full clone. Not to the extent of Dr. Mario, but still enough. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 09:10, 7 March 2019 (EST) | |||
#Dr. Mario and Pichu are on the same level, if you ask me. The only thing that really sets Pichu apart from Pikachu is the self-damaging thing and smaller size. Other than that, there's some minor move differences that, while not being the same between the two of them, are about the same in number between both Dr. Mario and Pichu. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''the Irish Rurouni'''</span>]] 11:05, 7 March 2019 (EST) | |||
#Pichu is no less a clone than he was in Melee. The one thing that changed was not gaining Pikachu's new neutral aerial, and that single difference isn't enough to matter. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brazen 16:32, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
===Pichu is a Semi-Clone=== | |||
#Pichu is probably a semi clone because how it uses the move is different to Pikachu it has the mostly the same moves but different animation [[User:Thegameandwatch|Thegameandwatch]] ([[User talk:Thegameandwatch|talk]]) 14:46, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
#Short answer: Pichu isn't a clone because the game doesn't regard him as such. Also, Pichu's recoil. [[User:Alex95|Alex95]] ([[User talk:Alex95|talk]]) 16:22, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
# I have to agree that Pichu is a semi-clone, for the same reasons Toon Link is a semi-clone of Link. While it has many shared moves, it also has a completely different skeleton that require different animations in many cases. Its attributes are also different even besides the recoil, such as altered knockback and damage, giving it a lot of general differences that further distinguish it from Pikachu. [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 19:38, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
===Luigi was a Psudeo-clone in SSB4=== | |||
# With half of his specials, half of his tilts, half of his aerials, his dash and neutral attacks, and a majority of his smash attacks being completely unique, as well as him often being considered on Wolf or Lucas’s level even before Ultimate, i’d say Luigi is justified to be listed as a psudeo-clone in SSB4, despite bieng at 52% on the cloneosity list. However, the list does not include physical attributes, which if they were included, would drop Luigi (and SSBU ‘Dorf) below 50%, which would qualify them as psudeo-clones [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 21:33, March 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
===Luigi was a Semi-Clone in SSB4=== | |||
1. | |||
===Comments=== | |||
Skipping straight to a vote count for this matter is a very poor idea because it makes it difficult for early posters to discuss a difference of opinion with later posters. I would not put a lot of stock in this. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brazen 16:32, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
:Part of this is based on how convincing the users’ arguements are as well. For example, despite there being as muh people who think Pichu is a full clone as he is a semi-clone, none of the users have either defined what a full clone is in the first place, or have just said that he isn’t an echo fighter. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 18:34, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
::We do not need to "define" what a full clone is because the page already does. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Sphere 19:46, 9 March 2019 (EST) | |||
:::Copied directly from the page: | |||
::::*A '''full clone''' (often shortened to just "clone") will have unique [[taunt]]s and [[victory pose]]s<ref>[https://sourcegaming.info/2018/08/22/more-information-about-the-smash-direct-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-561/ "'More Information about the Smash Direct' Sakurai's Famitsu Column Vol. 561"]</ref>, may have unique attributes (such as being heavier or faster) or non-combat animations (such as running or jumping), and perhaps a unique attack or two. Otherwise, they share effectively all moves and animations with their parent. [[Dr. Mario (SSBM)|Dr. Mario in ''Melee'']] and [[Lucina (SSB4)|Lucina in ''SSB4'']] are examples of full clones. | |||
::::* A '''semi-clone''' has several unique attacks and animations of their own while retaining a significant amount from their parent. [[Ganondorf (SSBB)|Ganondorf in ''Brawl'']] and [[Isabelle (SSBU)|Isabelle in ''Ultimate'']] are examples of semi-clones. | |||
::::* A '''pseudo-clone''' is for the most part their own unique character, but with enough moves or animations copied from their parent that it would be inaccurate to say they are not cloned to some degree. [[Wolf (SSBB)|Wolf in ''Brawl'']] and [[Luigi (SSBU)|Luigi in ''Ultimate'']] are pseudo-clones. | |||
:::Young Link fits into the mold of a semi-clone now; a majority of his animations are different. It doesn’t matter that it’s mostly just holding the sword in his other hand. The fact of the matter is that almost all of his attack animations are different. We’d either have to specify what wualifies as what specifically is “different” (because clearly minor alterations don’t count for you), or we’ll have to define Young Link as a semi-clone. As for Ganondorf, while you do make a fair point on his aerials being exactly the same animation-wise, saying that he only has “several” unique attacks and animations is laughable and retaining a significant amount from [his] parent” is laughable. Comparing him to Isabelle, or Ken, or Falco, or Roy, or Took Link is laughable. These six have a clear amount taken from their base fighter. Ganondorf’s shared moves much less numerous than any of these six. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 01:59, 10 March 2019 (EST) | |||
::::You are speaking mostly/entirely in generalities, with phrasing such as "majority", "clear amount", "less numerous", etc. I have made a concerted attempt to compare characters in specific terms, such as spelling out how Ganondorf's number of different aerials/other attack groups compares with that of pseudo-clones, or that Young Link does not reach the "five unique moves" mark that other semi-clones do because if his mirroring was enough to count as unique animations then Mario would become a different character every time he turns around and faces the other way. I don't think you have a case to ignore my position as "laughable". [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Quintonic 06:52, 11 March 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::I apologize if I sounded rude when I said your postion was “laughable”. However, it would be much less convoluted to just say “)Ganondorf is now a pseudo-clone” instead of listing him as a semi-clone and then saying that he compares to pseudo-clones anyways. Simply calling him a pseudo-clone would fix this confusion by giving a simpler explanation than “'''His shared moves, while sharing similar animations, have significantly different frame data, damage, and knockback that alters their functions'''.” Preferably, it should read something like this: “'''Ganondorf’s only shared moves are X, Y, Z... and even those moves differ significantly in function.'''” He’s not comparable enough to the other listed semi-clones. The moment it has to be explained is the moment that listing their status differently would be the better thing to do. That’s the basis of my arguement for both him and Young Link. | |||
::::::As for Young Link, while you do make a fair point on him not having enough truly different moves, he does not compare to the likes of Dr. Mario and most of the echo fighters at all. Calling him a full clone in that regard would be wrong. I’m not saying that his moves are entirely different; he still has the same general sword swipes. But if you’re grading them based on animation, Young Link would end up as a semi-clone. It doesn’t matter that the general concept is the same; all of his animations were changed, and that’s what you said defines a clone status. Your point about Mario’s mirrored animations is also an entirely different beast. Mario’s moves are literally mirrored when he turns around. Young Link’s idke stance has his sword positioned differently, and thus his animations have to be completely redone. There was a manual on Brawl’s development that said that the idle stance is what every character’s animations were built off of (I currently can’t find the article, so it may have been deleted by source gaming, but I trust that you know which article I’m talking about. The one where it showed manequins replicating the attacks of characters such as Snake, Olimar, and ZSS) I’m not currently arguing this for Pichu because while his idle animation is more bouncy, it’s the same general stance, and could be easily replicated. With Young Link, not so much. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 03:29, March 12, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::You've lost sight of the article itself. I am only comparing Ganondorf/YL to the pseudo-clones/semi-clones on this talk page in order to show he is not one; the article text correctly treats him equally to all others in his category, rather than comparing him with another category. | |||
:::::::It is true that many animations have to start and end with the idle pose. However, this doesn't actually mean you have to redo the animations themselves if you change the idle pose: you only have to change the idle pose at the start and end. In fact, there's a good argument that they might have copied Link SSB4 to create Young Link SSBU and only then started changing Link SSBU, which would have reduced work considerably. (We have no proof either way of course, at least not yet.) I also know the Brawl article you speak of, and it's mostly about creating new characters' animations, not touching up old ones'. In addition, there are other characters with different idle poses that everyone agrees are clones (e.g. Dark Samus). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Dispenser 07:30, March 12, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::Just a technical input : actually, you don't necessarily have to change animations start and end frames to chain them, you can use a blending algorithm to do so. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 08:09, March 12, 2019 (EDT) | |||
My two cents about the matter (I'm following this page, since the rewrite was the result of my input) : Maybe you should properly redefine what a clone is, because you obviously don't all put the same weight on the same criterias. If I may, I would say that now we've got the ''echo'' concept that focuses heavily on reusing animations, maybe we should consider the ''clone'' concept from a gameplay perspective exclusively. With such a clear separation between gameplay and animation, you could then say without a doubt that Dr Mario, while not being an echo, is still a full clone, and that Ken, while being an echo fighter, is however only a semi-clone. You could even start talking about characters like Roy being ''semi-echo'' or characters like Pichu being ''pseudo-echo'' if you wanted to. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 05:41, March 12, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:Just a precision : when I say that we should redefine what a clone is, we could do it without retconing SSB, SSBM, SSBB, and SSB4. We may simply keep the current definition of clones as the "pre-ultimate" definition, and have in a second part a "post-ultimate" definition of clones, something like : | |||
:*A '''full clone''' (often shortened to just "clone") may have unique attributes (such as being heavier or faster), and perhaps a unique attack or two. Otherwise, they share effectively all moves and most properties with their parent. [[Dr. Mario (SSBU)|Dr. Mario]], [[Young Link (SSBU)|Young Link]], and [[Lucina (SSBU)|Lucina]] are examples of full clones in ''Ultimate''. | |||
:* A '''semi-clone''' has several unique attacks of their own and may have unique attributes too, while retaining a significant amount of elements from their parent. [[Ganondorf (SSBU)|Ganondorf]], [[Isabelle (SSBU)|Isabelle]], and [[Ken (SSBU)|Ken]] are examples of semi-clones in ''Ultimate''. | |||
:* A '''pseudo-clone''' is mostly a unique character, but with enough moves copied from their parent that it would be inaccurate to say they are not cloned to some degree. [[Luigi (SSBU)|Luigi]], [[Wolf (SSBU)|Wolf]], and [[Lucas (SSBU)|Lucas]] are pseudo-clones in ''Ultimate''. | |||
:[[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 06:02, March 12, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::Can you show that the community at large (i.e. not just this wiki) uses the term "clone" differently like this in SSBU compared to the other games? Because I really don't want to complicate things further by having the same term mean two different things on one page. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Dispenser 07:30, March 12, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::Nope, I can't. The introduction of the echo concept will surely make people rethink their definition of what a clone is. But we probably need time to see where it will go, however this evolution can also start here. The pre/post ultimate separation was more of a broad idea, but the main point of my comment was that some of you seem to focus mostly on gameplay similarities while ignoring animations entirely when they talk about clones, while others put a bigger weight on having similars animation even if the move properties are vastly changed from the parent one. You don't seem to all have the same definition of what is a similar move... So, what is a cloned move ? A move with the exact same properties (frames, hitboxes, effects, ...) ? A move with the same animation, even without common properties ? Or both ? [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 08:09, March 12, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::Personally, I think the move can only be considered truly unique if the function is vastly different. For example, despite Electroshock Arm having a different move, all it does differently is launh at a lower angle. Roy’s Double edge dance is the same as Marth’s, despite having a different last hit. Meanwhile, Ganondorf’s entire moveset is completely different from Falcon’s in every way possible (frame data, damage, knockback, particle effects, etc.), with the exceptipn of his aerials,grabs, and two of his specials being the same in animation. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 11:39, March 13, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::Well, it's not so obvious to me, because different launch angles also means different combos, and that's an important difference for some players. Meanwhile, you could say that having different damages is just a parameter and doesn't have that much impact on the short term gameplay. It's actually hard to give a strong definition to the notion of "similarity" because it's a very subjective word. But yet again, my initial comment was about how it may be time to remove the animation of the equation. I strongly feel that when people started to use the word "clone", they were initially mostly complaining about characters that were similar gameplaywise. But I have no evidence, it's just how it felt to me back then. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 16:14, March 13, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::Our main objective is to capture what the ''playerbase at large'' thinks, and I would say it's fairly clear that many people "over-rate" characters as being clones using animations and special move mechanics only; a huge population called Wolf a clone in Brawl just because of his special moves, and Lucina was accepted as a clone quickly after her SSB4 trailer having no gameplay knowledge other than her animations being Marth's. In fact, I would wager (but cannot prove) that the vast majority of players do not care what function is when deciding for themselves whether a move/character is a clone. (It cannot be debated that function does not matter for at least the Melee clones, such as Falco, so this view is not without factual basis.) But we need to balance that with the need to be ''accurate'', and I'd say it's fairly evident that things such a "Wolf is a clone" are not accurate, which is why the additional categories were created: to try and capture the nuances between "character is cloned pretty much entirely", "character is cloned but also has their own things", and "character isn't really a clone (only in some ways) but a lot of people will tell you they are". [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Loony 06:51, March 14, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::I main Wolf, so I know well how short sighted it is to consider him to be a clone of Fox (I main Wolf, yet I can't do shit with Fox). But the thing is still : as long as some people consider two characters to be clones based on a similar gameplays and other consider two characters to be clones based on similar animations, an agreement on which characters are clones can't really happen. Personnally, I wouldn't consider Young Link and Pichu as full clones, the difference in body type and therefore hitboxes is quite important. So again, what are the priorities ? You need to sort out that before arguing, cause if people don't use the same criteria, a concensus is impossible. Maybe we should put two column : gameplay and animation, and then we may all agree that Young Link is a semi-clone gameplay wise and a full clone animationwise. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 11:56, March 14, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::Heck, maybe we can even start talking about semi-echo and pseudo echo, like maybe Young Link is actually a semi-clone and a semi-echo (different yet similar animations could be what's qualify as a semi-echo)... [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 12:00, March 14, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::Let’s not complicate matters. This was only meant to argue Ganondorf’s, Pichu’s, and Young Link’s status, not to create some “semi-echo” status. Frankly, this comments section wasn’t even supposed to exist. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 19:11, March 14, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::And I think you won't find and agreement because you don't all have the same idea about what a clone is supposed to be, that's an issue ;) [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 20:13, March 14, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::::The issue isn’t what subtypes of clones there are though. The issue is if judging them strictly off of their moves’ animations is really the best choice. Because there are certain characters who have many moves with similar animations, but completely different non-attack animations, and are way too different from other characters in their category to justifiably be in the same position as said characters. Ganondorf is comparable to Luigi, and Young Link is comparable to Falco. I’m not sure if there’s any good way to put what I’m trying to communicate here, but he psudeo-clone disticntion is fine as it is. It’s only Ganondorf, Young Link, and''maybe'' Pichu I have problems with, so there’s no need to make a “semi-echo” distinction. That would be unneccesarily complicated. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 15:29, March 16, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::::"The issue is if judging them strictly off of their moves’ animations is really the best choice." I don't think there is any choice in the matter. Melee, SSB4, and the general fanbase all use the base idea of "attack animations are the only real important part" as defining clones. We shouldn't be making decisions on who's a clone in SSBU and then warping our definition of "clone" to fit, it should be the other way around, and if any characters don't "seem" or "feel" correct then oh well. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Ghostbuster 06:44, March 18, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::::::Is this still true tho ? With all the people contesting that this or this character is a clone because he plays totally differently, and especially now echo fighters are a thing, are people still commonly using this concept to talk about animation similarities ? [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 17:09, March 18, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::::::I think the fanbase at large is hung up on "echo" being the new "clone" and hasn't adjusted their expectations accordingly as we have. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] El Pollo 07:13, March 19, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::::::While Pichu and Young Link have been argued to be semi-clones (particularly the latter), nobody seriously thinks that Dr. Mario is a semi-clone despite not being an echo fighter. You are correct that the “echo” term is now accepted to be the new name for clone, people have adjusted themselves to consider Dr. Mario a full clone, even outside of this wiki. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 12:40, March 19, 2019 (EDT) | |||
Starting a new paragraph before things become unreadable. There are some situations where a character plays completely differently but is unarguably a full clone due to sharing almost every animation, such as the four Marths. However, my arguement was that Young Link and Ganondorf do not fit that mold (opening it up for Pichu as well because I’ve seen arguements for it. I personally think things are fine with the psydeo, semi, and full clone titles. The problem is that Ganondorf and Young Link are way too different from the others in their current category to be in that group. Even in the cloneosity chart, Young Link and Ganondorf are way too far in percentage for them to be considered the equivalent of others in their category. The difference between Young Link and Pichu is a full 5.5%, and the difference between Ganondorf and Toon Link is 9.4%. Wih Young Link, while the cloneosity hart is admittedly better proof that he’s a full clone, he’s still way too different from the other listed full clones to really be one. Ganondorf, on the other hand, is at 50%, and even then several moves are listed as thre same despite not even sharing close enough animations, such as his up tilt. While it’s close in animation to Falcon’s, it causes the zoom effect, and a kick is a fairly common up tilt anyways (such as on Samus, fox, or zero suit). And about the point on how we should follow what the fanbase should form our definition, I’ve seen plenty of people on both reddit and gamefaqs put Ganondorf and Young Link on the same levels as Wolf and Falco respectively. They’re comparable enough that I feel like they have earned their titles as pseudo and semi clones respectively. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 17:29, March 18, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:If you're going to be referencing my chart, you need to do so correctly. (First of all, check your math.) | |||
:#You admit that it shows Young Link as more of a clone than a semi-clone, given he's 3.6% away from the next clone and 8.4% away from the next semi-clone, but then proceed to claim he's "way too different" without elaboration. That's an argument that's hard to take seriously. | |||
:#You compared Ganondorf (SSBU) to Toon Link (SSBU). But Luigi (SSB4) is between them, so this isn't completely valid. In fact, because Ganondorf (SSBU) and Luigi (SSB4) are very close to each other while there's a fair gap in either direction to the next character, if you want Ganondorf (SSBU) to be a pseudo-clone, you ''must'' also call Luigi (SSB4) a pseudo-clone. You cannot have them in different categories. This is another part of the reason I feel Ganondorf (SSBU) is still a semi-clone - he's still real close to Luigi (SSB4), who is even less arguable. | |||
:#"a kick is a fairly common up tilt anyways" That doesn't matter for the fact that Ganondorf (SSBU)'s up tilt is still cloned. You also bring up Fox as an example that shares the move, but Fox's is a completely different type of kick that's not even comparable in animation, so I get the feeling you're not looking at things in-depth enough. | |||
:#I brought up the "general fanbase"'s tendancy to focus on animations because it matches the official definition of clones in all pre-SSBU games, and thus means that us focusing on attack animations isn't an official-only viewpoint. It doesn't mean we should automatically follow whatever they do (see: Wolf's status in Brawl). | |||
:[[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] El Pollo 07:13, March 19, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::#I admit that I screwed up with arguing for Young Link that time, but considering how all of his attack animations are altered, I still think he’d qualify as a semi-clone. I know they are mostly just mirrored attacks, but they still had to be adjusted based on his arm placement. While technically, he was less work than Falco, Nintendo still had to adjust his animations beyond mirrored attacks. I’m aware that Dark Samus has a different idle animation, but her arm placement is roughly the same. You say that Young Link could have been ported over from SSB4 Link, thus reducing the amount of work. That’s a fair arguement, but Link himself changed substantially in Ultimate (new dash, final smash, grab, reworked specials, completely different model and animations, etc.), that the workload reduced to port Young Link was removed so that a roughly equal amount of work was put into reworking Link. Additionally, we don’t know if Young Link was actually ported from Smash 4 Link. | |||
::#I’m going to be completely honest here: I’ve seen just as much arguements that Luigi was about on Lucas’s level back in Smash 4 and Brawl. While he doesn’t match up the chart as well as SSBU Ganondorf does (Luigi being at 52.8%), he was undeniably more different than many of the other semi-clones. He’s roughly around 6.8% further from SSBU Toon Link and SSB4 Ganondorf (both of whom are undeniably semi-clones). That’s still a substantial difference that may be worth looking into. About Wolf not being listed as any type of clone for years, again, he was always worth being considered a psudeo-clone had the definition been established at the time. While he was not a semi-clone, he should have been listed as a clone archetype in an “other” section at the bottom at the time. The ontl reason why people called Wolf a semi-clone wa sbecause we didn’t have a name for his type of clone at the time, not because he was factually not based on Fox. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 12:40, March 19, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::If you dig through the page history you'll see a lot of consternation over what exactly to do with Wolf, and the most recent pre-rewrite status was that he was indeed placed in an "other" box at the bottom. The new "pseudo-clone" idea formalizes this. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Non-Toxic 06:52, March 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::I just checked, and yeah you were right about Wolf being there. My bad. However, I’ll open up this debate to include SSB4 Luigi as well. I completely forgot that he was listed a s a semi-clone in SSB4, and I do think it may be worth looking into. I know your chart doesn’t include the physical attributes of fighters, but with how distinct certain characters are becoming in comparison to others in the same category, it may be worth being included in there. Maybe for the cloneosity chart, physical attributes such as speed and weight should be (minimally) counted. Maybe 0.01% for every point of weight, running speed, falling speed, air speed, and walking speed? This way, Ganondorf and SSB4 Luigi could be dropped down to Psudeo-clone. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 21:33, March 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::I have an idea: Maybe for the cloneosity chart, physical attributes such as speed and weight should be (minimally) counted. Maybe 0.01% for every point of weight, running speed, falling speed, air speed, and walking speed? This way, Ganondorf and SSB4 Luigi could be dropped down to Psudeo-clone, and YL down to semi-clone, without affecting Pichu or Dr. Mario enough to drop them as well. Does hat sound fair? [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 22:18, March 25, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::Any system that uses a sliding scale on numerical attributes (e.g. speed, weight, attack stats, etc) is going to be far more inaccurate simply because a) you have to pick out which ones should be counted at all, and b) you have to select the strength for each of them independently (because many of them have different units). There's no need to be so complex just to make some people feel like their opinion is correct. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Inconceivable 06:45, March 28, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::I can see what you’re talking about it being conplex, but I disagree that ignoring them entirely is the correct answer either. Despite not taking as long as changing an animation entirely, there is still more work in changing numerical attributes than in not changing them. Instead of basing it on how different the numerical scale is, perhaps basing it on how many are different instead (for example, all of Ganondorf’s and Wolf’s are different from Falcon’s and Fox’s, but Lucas’s weight is the same as Ness’s and Mario’s). Perhaps 0.05% for each one would work? After all, whether a character can wall jump or crawl is counted in your chart, so I don’t understand why something like weight or running speed would be ignored completely. | |||
:::::::Also, I hate to bring this up again, but despite a consensus not being a vote, when you’re the only person who’s considering Ganondorf a Semi-clone and Young Link a full-clone out of a good portion of users, then that should probably alarm you that there is a flaw in only basing it off (inconsistently) of animations. You say it would be too complex, but I’m actually trying to work out a working system right now by. Before we bring up Wolf again, this situation is different; people were arguing that Wolf was on the same level as Falco in terms of being a Fox clone. This is arguing that YL isn’t on Pichu/Doc/most Echo’s level or Ganondorf/SSB4 Luigi aren’t on Roy/Ken/Isabelle/TL/Falco’s level. One can clearly see that Young Link and Doc are clearly not the same kind of clone, just like how it was clear that Wolf and Falco weren’t. If worse comes to worse, we may need to create a “modelswap” subcategory specifically for Daisy, Dark Samus, and Richter. As for why I’m not listing Melee Falco or Lucina (who are listed as 100% on the list) in this category, it’s because they do have major differences despite not having different animations (which is also part of my issue wih the cloneosity chart, as all of Lucina’s attacks have some sort of difference compared to Dark Pit’s three). I’m sorry if I sounded harsh, but this isn’t just “some people’s opinion”. Just because this isn’t a vote, when you’re the only one who thinks that, then it’s not that they have a wrong opinion; it’s more likely something that should be looked into instead of being brushed aside. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 19:28, March 28, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::This is why you shouldn't start discussions by squeezing people into a vote count. When someone adds a comment to a discussion, they are likely to return to see what their comment did. When someone makes a vote, they are much more likely to believe they're done contributing and not return to see if their opinion changes when new information/arguments arise. It's even more difficult to put stock in a vote count when it's several weeks behind the discussion. (And this doesn't mean we should go around and advertise people to come back, because who's going to want to read this all at once? They would've had to have been reading it as it progressed in order to remain interested.) [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Resolute 06:49, March 29, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::You’re absolutely correct that a vote count isn’t really healthy for a discussion. Would it be possible to move this entire section to the archive, and restart the debates for Ganondorf, Young Link, Pichu, and SSB4 Luigi, only this time without the vote numbers. Something like the four sections below. No votes, just simple discussions about these four. The vote topics would be moved to the archive. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 03:04, March 30, 2019 (EDT) | |||