58,359
edits
User talk:1337 B33FC4K3: Difference between revisions
m
Text replacement - "" to ""
(→A well-meaning observant’s opinion on your recent behavior: new section) |
m (Text replacement - "" to "") |
||
| (81 intermediate revisions by 20 users not shown) | |||
| Line 98: | Line 98: | ||
:::Apparently, Marth's grab range in Melee was larger than Yoshi's grab range. Any character that didn't have a tether grab probably would have benefited from having a grab with that range to begin with. [[User:LimitCrown|LimitCrown]] ([[User talk:LimitCrown|talk]]) 14:24, 1 February 2015 (EST) | :::Apparently, Marth's grab range in Melee was larger than Yoshi's grab range. Any character that didn't have a tether grab probably would have benefited from having a grab with that range to begin with. [[User:LimitCrown|LimitCrown]] ([[User talk:LimitCrown|talk]]) 14:24, 1 February 2015 (EST) | ||
::::Yoshi's grab isn't a tether grab dude. It's actually not that much shorter; the difference is about 1 unit. And the only reason Marth got that grab in the gif was because Yoshi has a really large hurtbox on his nose. Put Fox in Yoshi's place and Marth would not have gotten the grab.--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 16:18, 1 February 2015 (EST) | ::::Yoshi's grab isn't a tether grab dude. It's actually not that much shorter; the difference is about 1 unit. And the only reason Marth got that grab in the gif was because Yoshi has a really large hurtbox on his nose. Put Fox in Yoshi's place and Marth would not have gotten the grab.--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 16:18, 1 February 2015 (EST) | ||
:I laughed at how much you missed OT's point. Key words you used were "uninformed" and "objective" to describe how little he knew yet you were so focused on letting everyone know a Top 5 grab reach was awful. [[User:Ganonmew|Ganonmew]] ([[User talk:Ganonmew|talk]]) 18:45, 29 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
==[http://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Marth_(SSB4)&curid=39190&diff=644244&oldid=642435 this]== | ==[http://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Marth_(SSB4)&curid=39190&diff=644244&oldid=642435 this]== | ||
| Line 130: | Line 132: | ||
== A well-meaning observant’s opinion on your recent behavior == | == A well-meaning observant’s opinion on your recent behavior == | ||
Hi Brian, I believe to be a person that you have a certain level of respect for, as I have contributed quite a lot and in rather influencial ways, especially considering Melee-Marth. I can understand why you | Hi Brian, I believe to be a person that you have a certain level of respect for, as I have contributed quite a lot and in rather influencial ways, especially considering Melee-Marth. I can understand why you acted the way you recently did; I myself have often witnessed players with very limited knowledge expressing their opinion of the game as if it was a fact, which really is something that very few people can truly claim, and I do not consider myself as one of them, just somewhat close. Magus420 is the only one that I personally think is up to this level. (And HAL developers, on the off chance they are involved in the online Melee community.) | ||
With that being said, my personal policy when dealing with such “ignorant” users is to treat them with respect by default, but ignore them as soon as interaction with them becomes nothing but a waste of time. Additionally, I personally have no interest in Smash 4, for I am a fan of Melee, not the Smash series in general, and I have found Smash 4 to contain none of the things I cherish in Melee. I do agree that during the total half hour I have played Smash 4, Marth felt like a really lackluster character, but in the end I am neither an expert on Smash 4 nor qualified to make claims about its tier list due to my dislike for the game itself, clouding my judgment on it. | With that being said, my personal policy when dealing with such “ignorant” users is to treat them with respect by default, but ignore them as soon as interaction with them becomes nothing but a waste of time. Additionally, I personally have no interest in Smash 4, for I am a fan of Melee, not the Smash series in general, and I have found Smash 4 to contain none of the things I cherish in Melee. I do agree that during the total half hour I have played Smash 4, Marth felt like a really lackluster character, but in the end I am neither an expert on Smash 4 nor qualified to make claims about its tier list due to my dislike for the game itself, clouding my judgment on it. | ||
| Line 137: | Line 139: | ||
None of this is meant in a condescending way; this might as well be a piece of advice I’m sending back in time to myself six years ago. My only intention is to increase the standard of knowledge and level of interaction available for Melee, and I believe choosing to act in a way that is not accusing other people of their shortcomings and perhaps rash contributions that do more hard than good is a course of action you will advocate if reconsidering it and maybe view it with a bit of more distance. [[User:Kadano|<font color="blue">Kadano</font>]] [[User talk:Kadano|<font color="teal">talk</font>]] 20:58, 17 February 2015 (EST) | None of this is meant in a condescending way; this might as well be a piece of advice I’m sending back in time to myself six years ago. My only intention is to increase the standard of knowledge and level of interaction available for Melee, and I believe choosing to act in a way that is not accusing other people of their shortcomings and perhaps rash contributions that do more hard than good is a course of action you will advocate if reconsidering it and maybe view it with a bit of more distance. [[User:Kadano|<font color="blue">Kadano</font>]] [[User talk:Kadano|<font color="teal">talk</font>]] 20:58, 17 February 2015 (EST) | ||
:Hmm, reading your posts in [http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2qfh4w/the_differences_between_a_wavedash_and_a_perfect/cn5mjzi this reddit thread] makes me kind of reconsider. Your arguing was excellent and accurate, except for one minor thing*. In the end, the guy who said stupid shit and didn’t know the terms he was using got more upvotes than you, though. How do you feel about the Smash 4 community and Smash 4 in general? I personally try to avoid it, I don’t think I’d get along with someone who actually prefers it over Melee. | |||
:(*)Wavedash lengths are actually highly variable, but the controller’s octagon gate makes it hard to get the shortest and longest lengths. Sanding it out to a round or near-round improves this and makes it easier to reliably do certain wavedash lengths. It’s totally underused and very helpful to get things like wavedash oos to tipper fsmash or dsmash (these usually whiff when you do the standard notch length). [[User:Kadano|<font color="blue">Kadano</font>]] [[User talk:Kadano|<font color="teal">talk</font>]] 12:19, 20 February 2015 (EST) | |||
You guessed correctly about my opinion of Smash 4. It plays absolutely nothing like Melee and I only enter tournaments where I'm guaranteed free money. I don't have a high opinion of the Smash 4 Community in general. Compared to the Melee community, the Smash 4 community lacks true leadership and its player base is highly uninformed about the mechanics of Smash 4 and more importantly how drastically different those mechanics are from Melee. These players are also the type of players who say Smash 4 is better because it requires more "mindgames" but I find that incredibly ironic because those same players don't even understand how neutral game and basic spacing. I realize this is partially excusable because those players are new, but when they talk about Smash 4 they get so many facts wrong about Melee. Of course there a few a Smash 4 players in the community who are aware of how different Melee is and I have a good deal of respect for them, but I'd wish they'd take more of an active role in making their community more mature. --<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 13:27, 20 February 2015 (EST) | |||
== Bottom 5 characters in Smash 4? == | |||
Smash 4 has a lot of balance. It's hard to discern the top 5 (outside Sheik and Diddy) and the bottom 5 (outside of Mii Swordfighter and Lucina), but since you've done some testing (evidenced by your knowledge on SDI), I'm curious about who you think are the top 5 worst characters in the game, and for what reasons. <font face="X-Files">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> 16:45, 19 February 2015 (EST) | |||
Ask Mew2king not me. Diddy and Sheik are miles above the rest of the cast and Marth is pure trash now. That's all you really need to know if you want to win in this game.--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 17:57, 19 February 2015 (EST) | |||
It is a fact that Marth and Lucina ranks somewhere at 45-51 or so. :P [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Mega Man X SNES sprite.png|19px]] The Windows 19:12, 19 February 2015 (EST) | |||
:@Brian - Lol. Mew2king thinks Mario is top 5, when he's at best only ~top 20. I don't trust his judgement because he doesn't invest anything into the game competitively, hence just using Diddy. He has too much influence on the Smash 4 community, if he told them that Bowser is top tier everyone would follow that idea in lockstep and anyone challenging it would scolded on sight. | |||
:And Dots, Marth is significantly better than Lucina because of how her sword functions (strongest hit always connects, so her moves are extremely easy to punish out of shield). Marth is the worst he's ever been but is still assumed to be mid-tier, because everyone else in the game is weak, too, except Diddy Kong and Sheik (who isn't strong but has the best frame data). <font face="X-Files">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> 19:40, 19 February 2015 (EST) | |||
::BNK, hence that its a joke that Brian disliked Marth ever since Brawl released for nerfing him. But I do actually agree that he shouldn't rank that low like I said, maybe he's somewhere around 20-32 while Lucina is like around 28-36. I personally agree with Diddy Kong being the best despite my older brother disagreeing with me (but far from being said "broken" like many people think) but if not that, its guaranteed that Diddy Kong and Sheik are both Top 3. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Mega Man X SNES sprite.png|19px]] The Missingno. 20:56, 19 February 2015 (EST) | |||
He is in the middle tier that's closer to trash tier than the top tier. Marth will not be winning any large tournaments in the game except by patches or a really really REALLY lucky miracle. --<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 00:25, 20 February 2015 (EST) | |||
:I think the Top 5 are from 5 to 1 (assuming customs are off): Sheik, Luigi, Rosalina, Pikachu, and Ness/Meta Knight. Bottom 5 IMO 5 to 1 (customs off): Ganondorf/Samus, Zelda, Palutena/Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, and Dedede. [[User:Ganonmew|Ganonmew]] ([[User talk:Ganonmew|talk]]) 19:35, 31 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
::This discussion is old. It is not necessary to discuss this further. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Mega Man X SNES sprite.png|19px]] The 20XX player 20:27, 31 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
== Just so you know == | |||
We do have the numbers, and Fox does indeed run faster in SSB4 compared to Brawl. It's only a change from 2.08 to 2.184 though, so whether it's important enough to list is dubious. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Engineer 20:36, 2 March 2015 (EST) | |||
:I see. I heard the units of distance changed in Smash 4. Could that be a confounding factor? Also this number describes full run and not dash right?--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 20:57, 2 March 2015 (EST) | |||
::It's max run speed and not initial dash yes. I keep hearing people saying that "units changed", but it's a rather difficult concept to prove (did the units change, or did everything change around the units?). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Emissary 22:00, 2 March 2015 (EST) | |||
== Marth == | |||
You really need to stop affecting articles such as Marth's with your biased opinion. The frame data and all the other crap you have to say about him doesn't matter; you can't just put in a statement about his value just based off of your own experience, and before we even have tiers. Just wanted to let you know that you must be objective in these articles. The admins clearly agree with me. [[User:Kid A|Kid_X]] ([[User talk:Kid A|talk]]) 06:52, 7 April 2015 (EDT) | |||
== dude calm down == | |||
You are seriously rude in your summaries. (i.e. "Who the (im not swearing even in a quote) is editing this page?" "Uh yea it does. That's how knockback is calculated. Are you an idiot?") The second one I kind of get but that comment was in no way necessary and definitely rude (even if it is partially true), and it gives the Wiki a bad image when someone's edits are met with swear bombs and name-calling. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:Nutta Butta|Nutta.]] </small> 15:07, 23 June 2015 (EDT) | |||
:It's ok. He can get off scott free because reasons! [[Special:Contributions/65.49.14.159|65.49.14.159]] 20:39, 29 June 2015 (EDT) | |||
:Yeah, because no one gives a shit if he at least makes good edits. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Mega Man X SNES sprite.png|19px]] The Zerg 22:21, 30 June 2015 (EDT) | |||
== ~~You cannot keep doing this.~~ == | |||
"The only players who think Marth is midtier are bad players whose opinions don't matter." | |||
That is sheer bias against Marth, pretty much on the verge of being a personal attack. There are players who are dedicated mains and would agree that Marth is midtier at least, even barring patches. You have shown no respect to anyone who plays Marth well, as well as Marth mains in general. It's like if he isn't Melee level, he's bad to you, stop. | |||
Edit: Now, I will not deny Marth leaves A LOT to be desired, I would even agree with you before I found some really good Marth players who utilize whatever comboing ability Marth may have left. Marth has extremely strong punishes, and even if some require pulling off a hard read or requiring baiting to do so, they are very rewarding. Shield Breaker is a lot more reliable than you think, it isn't second nature to avoid it (even when almost uncharged and untippered can break a shield that barely is damaged). I read somewhere you said Marth's recovery was comparable to a rock, it actually isn't (Dolphin Jump is terrible BTW, it is unnecessary at this point). I'm also not blind to the fact that Marth mains are obscure and are not experienced, but the Marth mains I face, big fish in a small pond they may be, are formidable opponents who KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING. Lucina is awful tho. | |||
And why should I tell you who I am again? | |||
<small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:45.37.25.25|45.37.25.25]] ([[User talk:45.37.25.25|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/45.37.25.25|contribs]]) 05:32, August 9, 2015</small> | |||
:1. Who are you? | |||
:2. Marth lacks both a neutral game and a consistent punish game in Smash 4. That's most definitely low tier. High tiers have both a strong neutral game and a consistent punish game. Midtiers have 1 or the other but not both. Low tiers have neither. | |||
:3. Name a legit pro who both has good results with Marth and thinks Marth is anything but low tier. No, Mr. E is a fraud. He hasn't beaten any top players or placed top 8 at a national using only Marth. Ally doesn't count either. He only uses the character as a joke to prove how much better he is than everyone. | |||
:4. Respect is earned. No Smash 4 Marth main has demonstrated an understanding of high level play and can use that knowledge to prove viability. No Marth apologist demonstrates the ability to explain the concept of frame advantage in neutral to me. --<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 12:56, 9 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
::If I may, the fact that you say that someone's opinions don't matter disgusts me. Grow up. [[File:Aidanzapunksignature.png|20px]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Master of Speed and Aura'''</span>]][[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] 13:43, 9 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
::Marth is low-mid tier at best (and that's a very generous estimate); he's not wrong about that. But yeah, Brian, that's a straight up violent edit summary and not appropriate. I get that you're frustrated by people claiming such, but still, try to keep things non-inflammatory. --[[User:Timson622222|Timson622222]] ([[User talk:Timson622222|talk]]) 14:05, 9 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
I would like to add a few things: | |||
1. Unlike what you appear to think, Marth is far from the worst. It is extremely unlikely one will beat ZeRo's Sheik (but then again, even Mew2King hardly beats that), but there are characters with worse neutrals AND (key word: and, not or) punishes, like default Ganon, Dedede (worst neutral and no punishes), Mewtwo, Samus, Zelda, Dr. Mario, and Falco. Seriously, Dedede and Mewtwo are contenders for worst. Marth is far better than any of these characters. | |||
Innovations in his metagame will come, look at him in Melee. Everyone thought he was trash until Ken came along. | |||
2. Marth is bad due to inconvenient attributes? Well the same could be said for Melee Falco, I guess. Despite having the fastest falling speed in the series excluding PM Wolf, he does not have the highest vertical endurance because he is so light, which means anything kills him at 90%. Additionally, because of his fast fall speed, he had a recovery worse than Little Mac's. Not to mention how easy he was to combo. My point is, just because a character is weak in certain places does not mean that character is bad. In this case, Marth. | |||
3. The Ken Combo isn't impossible dude-just practice. I've seen some beautiful Ken Combos by some really good Marths (the big fishes in the small pond). | |||
4. Funny how I should have come across you, I first came to this talk page when OT advised you for anything Melee specific. Clearly he did not know what to expect. | |||
It is unlikely Marth will spike (pun not intended), and I agree he is not great, but at the very least, he is upper-mid tier. Just keep your cool man. | |||
<small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:45.37.25.25|45.37.25.25]] ([[User talk:45.37.25.25|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/45.37.25.25|contribs]]) 6:52, August 9, 2015</small> | |||
You've stated alot of unsubstantiated claims and what ifs. You have not presented (or proven) any facts. First of all, your personal experience doesn't mean anything. You got beat by Marth players? Ok, that shows you don't know what you were doing, not that Marth has some secret potential waiting to be unlocked (seriously, think about how far fetched that conclusion is). You haven't stated any notable names and I doubt the players you are losing to won't make top 8 at the next EVO. | |||
Second lets address all of your claims. You say Marth has a strong punish game? It's not just the magnitude of a punish that makes it strong. '''Consistency''' of a punish is what makes it valuable. You get hit by a tipper at die at 60? Well you got gimmicked and hard read. Hard reads are not reliable. | |||
Shield Breaker not being punishable? Well check the frame data. It has a startup of 19 frames. The average human reaction time is 13 frames. Conclusion: your reaction time sucks. Also if it doesn't break a shield, you can punish it for free. Neutral B hits on frames 19-20. You can act afterward at frame 50. If your shield isn't broken, you have 30 frames to punish Marth. That's alot of time. | |||
Marth's recovery being good? Don't make me laugh. He's only going 1 place. He can't stall with side B and if he can't use his double jump to get to the ledge, he's gonna double jump and then up B to the ledge. Just put a hitbox in front of the ledge and Marth will die. It's really safe to edgeguard Marth, but most people don't know the concept of covering options so that's why they suck at it. | |||
Innovations will come? Maybe, but it's highly unlikely given how awful Marth's frame data is. I did the math several times. Marth commits too hard in neutral. He can't pressure. He can't cover options. Those a clear signs of a lack of potential. As for Marth in Melee, no one thought he was trash in the beginning. 4th on the first tier list. Where are you getting your facts from? | |||
Falco's recovery in Melee. It's not great distance wise, but unlike Marth or Little Mac, Falco has mixups. Assuming Falco is in range to actually recover, you can't cover all of his options. If you edgehog, you cover side B, but not high up Bs or air dodge. If you stay on the stage, you can react to up B and not side B. Marth does not have these mixups. | |||
The Ken Combo in Smash 4 is literally bad DI + the opponent doesn't react and let Marth hit them. Not reliable and it won't happen vs good players. | |||
My final point: learn how to play high level play before calling a character good. Oh and Aiden, opinions only mean something if they are well founded: when they have facts to back them up. Opinions about Marth being good are not well founded. I haven't seen any argument with the logical depth of mine for Marth being good. --<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 23:28, 9 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
:I will have to agree with your point. I don't see why Marth should be in the mid tier. His nerfed neutral, approach, combos, and punish game prevent him from being a mid, high, and top tier. For instance if i'm right, he can't hit opponent's shield with his forward aerial without getting punished due to its lag. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfl6nFuv9SA ZeRo mentioned about Marth's core problems that made him bad and why the patch buffs did not help Marth to fix his critical problems]. All the patches he received, did not address his worsened approach ability, followup options, punish game, and neutral game. It's good to see that all of his aerials have slightly less lag and improvement to some of his attacks, but it's still not enough. Marth does not have better throw followups and KO setups. To me, this is why I feel that Marth is inferior to Roy in Smash 4. Not only high tiers have both a strong neutral game and a consistent punish game, they also have amazing throw followups, KO setups, and other tools that makes them a high tier characters. [[User:Luigi540|Luigi540]] ([[User talk:Luigi540|talk]]) 23:43, 9 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
::First off, it's "Aidan", not "Aiden". (Not gonna get truly mad about you for this, since people do it all the time.) Secondly, you can have your opinions, and people can have theirs; facts can back it up, or not. My point is '''''everyone's opinion matters'''''. [[File:Aidanzapunksignature.png|20px]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Master of Speed and Aura'''</span>]][[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] 23:49, 9 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
I'm just going to jump in here to say this: our "So-And-So (SSB_)" pages have a lot of opinionated mess on them both in favor of their abilities and critical of them. Rather than bickering over ''whose'' opinionated statements are more relevant, we should be focusing more on the characters' relative strengths and weaknesses, how they're played competitively by their highest-placing representatives, and the like. Furthermore, everybody here should probably try to relax and de-escalate. This is really not worth getting this worked up over. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 00:45, 10 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
Before the first tier list was founded, Marth was considered to suffer from what I call the "Mario Syndrome": His moveset was too simple. On top of this, people thought he relied too heavily on rolling and C-stick spamming...until Ken. | |||
Everyone has a point, though I still have faith that innovations in Marth's meta will come like it did in Melee and like it did for Olimar and Icies in Brawl. I see where you are coming from and you are not wrong about anything (except his recovery which can actually be boosted significantly by Shield Breaker, not to mention Dophin's Slash's power and arc, now if only it did 13%), but I still feel Marth has POTENTIAL. | |||
I would like to add: where are Yoshi's results? There are none and he is still considered solid. | |||
Aidan, spot on. And Miles, you are also right. I might be a little biased, but I try to see both sides of the coin with strengths and weaknesses (except with Dedede and Mewtwo, who flat out have no strengths). I just felt a little alienated by the edit description. And yes, Roy is infinitely better than Marth (don't have him though). Ironic if you ask me lol. | |||
Thank you all for paying attention to what I have to say. | |||
<small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:45.37.25.25|45.37.25.25]] ([[User talk:45.37.25.25|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/45.37.25.25|contribs]]) 9:56, August 10, 2015</small> | |||
I want to add a few more things: | |||
1) The players I play against are good, but I really don't think they will be going to any internationals anytime soon. Marth has potential, it's no secret that ALMOST ANYONE in the game has some sort of potential. Lucina is useless tho. | |||
2) Shield Breaker is far from unpunishable. But it has plenty of utility. If Ganondorf's up tilt has utility (which it does), so can Shield Breaker. It is useful for recovery, typically breaks full shields unless it's perfect shielded (perfect shielding takes perfect reflexes) and is a strong kill move. But like any KO move that does not belong to Sheik, it is very punishable and you are guaranteed to eat a NASTY punish if you whiff, it doesn't send far enough, or somehow it doesn't break a shield. I really wish Shield Breaker had Brawl shield damage. In Smash 4 physics, Brawl Shield Breaker would break anything. | |||
Again, thank you for hearing what I have to say. | |||
<small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:45.37.25.25|45.37.25.25]] ([[User talk:45.37.25.25|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/45.37.25.25|contribs]]) 10:08, August 10, 2015</small> | |||
I'm back again after reading a recent change on the Marth page. | |||
"Guess I gotta do everything myself guys." | |||
It seems you are trying to snuff out all faith that Marth can be good, I didn't say he was necessarily good, said opinions were divided. You are acting like only your opinion exists. Marth is a low tier, but he has a candle of potential lol, you can't deny the fact that Marth is not completely useless, but then again, you are entitled to your opinion, and I am to mine. | |||
<small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:45.37.25.25|45.37.25.25]] ([[User talk:45.37.25.25|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/45.37.25.25|contribs]]) 10:16, August 10, 2015</small> | |||
The problem is that these opinions about Marth, including yours, are based on a faulty understanding of the game. You also have questionable sources of information. Seriously, Marth was considered amazing in early Melee, even when everyone was a scrub. Azen, the first good player, beat literally everyone via forward smash reads. Like I said, when you come up with an argument for Marth that has the logical soundness of mine, then I'll listen. --<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 11:41, 10 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
:I would agree with you that Marth is low tier (and Lucina is Bottom 10 in my opinion) but he isn't really bad like Mewtwo is. When it comes to the Marth (SSB4) page however, you're not giving other people who edit it a chance and quite frankly, the page is written from your opinions only. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Mega Man X SNES sprite.png|19px]] The Democratic 12:22, 10 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
Very early in the Melee metagame, Marth was seen as a character that relied too much on rolling and C-stick spamming, traits that led to a negative low-level image of him despite his high tier placement. Shortly before the third tier list (June 2003), Ken won Tournament Go 4 with Marth, introducing the uses of dash-dancing, chain throwing, and a higher focus on spacing and aerial combat, including the creation of the famous Ken Combo. Later, Ken incorporated other advanced techniques, such as wavedashing, into Marth's metagame, and showed how powerfully he could punish enemies off small mistakes and reads. Because of this, Ken is credited for largely improving Marth's metagame. Ken, and a handful of other top Marth mains such as Azen, are credited for moving Marth up to the top tier for years to come, usually around the second to fourth highest spot on the list. Marth's first drop into the high tier since then was in the eighth tier list (July 2006), where he dropped to fourth place. However, in the ninth tier list (October 2008), he again moved up to second place, before dropping to fifth place in the tenth list (September 2010), and rising to fourth in the eleventh (current) tier list as of July 2013. | |||
From this very wiki. | |||
And Dots, I agree with everything you said. Look at the good sides of Marth too: good power, decent recovery, decent edgeguarding, remarkable speed, and decent range. Yes, he does not quite have a dagger. | |||
Good day to all and good night. | |||
<small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:45.37.25.25|45.37.25.25]] ([[User talk:45.37.25.25|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/45.37.25.25|contribs]]) 2:13, August 10, 2015</small> | |||
== To Brian and Miles == | |||
You both need to stop. | |||
Brian, stop overblowing Marth's nerfs, it is not like he is useless, and he did get buffed as the game went on, I see what you mean, but stop acting like he has no hope. | |||
Miles, stop understating Marth's nerfs. You are being overly defensive about this character, I see where you are coming from, but he was nerfed severely and is not even high tier anymore. | |||
I hope we can get this settled, but remember to stay neutral. You are entitled to your opinions, but this is a wiki. | |||
<small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:45.37.25.25|45.37.25.25]] ([[User talk:45.37.25.25|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/45.37.25.25|contribs]]) 4:25, August 10, 2015</small> | |||
Haha. Say this to me again when you reach the same level of understanding I have about the game.--[[Special:Contributions/64.2.3.194|64.2.3.194]] 16:38, 10 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
I'm not going to say you were not wrong about the fact that Marth is arguably the most severely nerfed character in the game. However, you go as far as to say Marth has no strengths and is completely useless. | |||
<small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:45.37.25.25|45.37.25.25]] ([[User talk:45.37.25.25|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/45.37.25.25|contribs]]) 4:44, August 10, 2015</small> | |||
The gimmicks you perceive as strengths mean nothing to me. Whatever attractive features left in his kit are too few and far between to do anything significant. He's nothing but a scrub slayer now.--[[Special:Contributions/64.2.3.194|64.2.3.194]] 16:52, 10 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
We'll see. I'm not counting on it. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:45.37.25.25|45.37.25.25]] ([[User talk:45.37.25.25|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/45.37.25.25|contribs]]) 5:00, August 10, 2015</small> | |||
I would agree with Brian on this one. Unless if Marth gets an extreme buff in his neutral and punish game in a patch, I see him nowhere as viable compared to Melee and <s>Brawl</s>; although that being said, I wouldn't say he's complete shit like Lucina is. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Mega Man X SNES sprite.png|19px]] The Medic 17:01, 10 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
Dots, you are very late to what I said. He is nowhere near what he used to be and that is a fact. Another fact is, he actually has a neutral and punish game, unlike Lucina, Dedede, Mewtwo, Robin, and 0% Lucario. | |||
:I'm not saying that he has a nonexistent neutral and punish game, its just that it is considerably weaker, if not outright bad, than the previous two games. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Mega Man X SNES sprite.png|19px]] The Light 17:21, 10 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
:Not only Marth needs buffs in his neutral and punish game, he also needs to have an improved throw follow ups and combo ability (like linking forward aerial to each other efficiently, have forward aerial strings, and less base and growth of its knockback on his throws, so he can follow up better and have better KO setups). Only true follow ups so far I found is his forward throw to Crescent Slash (custom move), although I see some top players are against custom moves for competitive play after EVO. Otherwise, I don't see how viable he will be and is not gonna be too bright. [[User:Luigi540|Luigi540]] ([[User talk:Luigi540|talk]]) 17:29, 10 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
== Taking away facts. == | |||
I've seen you confronted with changes to characters, notably changes to Marth and Fox, but tell whomever confronted you with them to not list them because they are insignificant, such as maybe a very slightly faster dash speed. You do realize we list all changes we find, right? There is no "leaving out insignificant facts". [[User:Ganonmew|Ganonmew]] ([[User talk:Ganonmew|talk]]) 08:40, 18 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
:Who said that? Toomai? If so, ok. If Miles, he doesn't actually know anything about this game. I'd honestly wouldn't take his suggestions seriously.--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 23:47, 20 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
::I believe it's more of a general consensus. Also, [[SW:YAV]]. [[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: LawnGreen">'''Nyargle'''</span><span style="color: orange">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nyargleblargle|Talk]]) 06:26, 21 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
::I don't quite recall who you said it to or what it was.. | |||
::Also, you need to stop personally attacking people in edit summaries. I get that they don't know too much about the game and you are frustrated with them, but there's no reason to have an edit summary like those. Not to mention how much you ignore people who try and tell you this, | |||
::On that topic, I seriously laughed at your previous section with OT. He tried to point out your flawed logic in saying he is "uninformed" and you get your facts from "objective sources" when you were adamant to the end that one of the Top 5 non-tethers was "horrible", which if you listened to the entire sentence, would've stopped you dead in your tracks and think about your bias against all versions of Marth. But instead, you went and took offense to the first thing he said because you just HAD to prove the guy wrong, didn't you? | |||
::TL;DR 1) I don't know much about what you said to who or what it was. 2) I look up to you, but you're being a malicious hypocrite. [[User:Ganonmew|Ganonmew]] ([[User talk:Ganonmew|talk]]) 09:15, 21 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
::One more thing, if Shield Breaker does not break your shield, it is actually not always (if ever) a free punish. The universal decrease in traction (and still no wavedashing) makes it so characters get pushed back a lot if attacks hit their shield. The only characters that actually stand a chance to punish Shield Breaker if it doen't break a shield are Little Mac and Rosalina. No, other characters with high traction will not punish because they are too slow or their attacks are too laggy (if not both). So, think about the mechanics of Smash 4 before you say something. | |||
::Also, if you hate "Trash" 4, why do you bother attacking its players? [[User:Ganonmew|Ganonmew]] ([[User talk:Ganonmew|talk]]) 09:26, 21 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::Well that's if it's not powershielded. You don't slide if an attack is powershielded. [[User:Serpent_King|<span style="color:#008833; text-shadow:-1px -1px #00bb77;">'''Serpent King'''</span>]] [[User talk:Serpent_King|(<span style="color: blue;">talk</span>)]] 10:19, 21 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::@SK | |||
:::1) You have 1-2 frames to powershield. You won't do that under normal circumstances unless you outright expect SB to come out. | |||
:::2) doPon't makes no sense. Explain please, [[User:Ganonmew|Ganonmew]] ([[User talk:Ganonmew|talk]]) 10:39, 21 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
I fail to see where I'm being hypocritical. I have never contradicted my arguments and made sure mine lack logical fallacies. My opinions of Marth are well founded in frame data research and a good deal of experience. Who are you to say all of that is flawed? You make statements based on nothing. Have you even seem the frame disadvantage of neutral B? It hits on frames 19 and 20 and then you are actionable on frame 50. That means if it doesn't break your shield or misses, you have to eat 30 frames of recovery where you can't move. 30 frames is a ton of time for your opponent to do whatever they want. Even if they shield the move, it only does 6ish frames of shield stun and I believe it takes 4 frames to release the shield in Smash 4 (someone verify this for me). 20 frames is also a ton of time to do whatever you want. You most certainly can punish a missed neutral B. If you can't, you probably suck and your reaction time is too slow. | |||
Also both of you are wrong. The window for powershielding a physical attack is 4 frames (the first 2 frames reflect projectiles in Melee). --[[Special:Contributions/64.2.3.194|64.2.3.194]] 15:58, 21 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
:Yea, my reaction time is even worse than OT's, but try punishing it with someone like Yoshi or Charizard. And, you said that Brawl Marth's grab range is abysmal, :but it remained of of the Top 5 longest non-tethers. | |||
:BTW I actually am an ok player. You can play me if you want. [[User:Ganonmew|Ganonmew]] ([[User talk:Ganonmew|talk]]) 16:29, 21 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
:Ganonmew: If you think that no other characters with high traction will not punish, you are wrong. Low traction characters have hard time punish out of shield. Look at Luigi, if you use attack and hit Luigi's shield, he will slide back further and he will have hard time to punish, unless he powersheids. Some characters have good out of shield options. Don't think about hitting his Shield Breaker against great Zero Suit Samus player either. She has the best punisher in the game. Make random or even tiny mistakes, you will get hit harder with her moves and get KO'd earlier (for instance you use that move and it was shielded (not broken) or powershielded and you are at 20% and ZSS is at 80%, you will get down thrown, uair, uair, up B and get KOd), if she does it right. If she has rage, you will get KO'd earlier as well. [[User:Luigi540|Luigi540]] ([[User talk:Luigi540|talk]]) 16:54, 21 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
::I thought ZSS has low traction. The reason I said that Shield Breaker is hard to punish is because only characters with high traction can punish things like that (unless you're Sheik or Samus, who can simply roll to punish despite their low traction), only the characters with high traction are ultimately too slow, laggy, weak, or all of the above, to punish well. | |||
Also, 4 frames. That is shorter than the startup of Falco's pre-Smash 4 dair. I wish you good luck on powershielding on a consistent basis when you are not Mew2King. [[User:Ganonmew|Ganonmew]] ([[User talk:Ganonmew|talk]]) 19:41, 28 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
Powershielding is very well humanly possible to perform consistently. 4 frames is actually a very lenient timing. Powershielding is not purely reactive; it also involves seeing how your opponent's position telegraphs their moves. Also if you suck at powershielding, you can also reactively spot dodge. --[[Special:Contributions/128.237.189.112|128.237.189.112]] 07:58, 29 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
== I'd like to bring your attention... == | |||
...to [[SW:AN#Other policy breaking|this]]. [[File:Aidanzapunksignature.png|20px]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Master of Speed and Aura'''</span>]][[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] 21:46, 21 August 2015 (EDT) | |||
:Weird how he hasn't noticed. [[User:Ganonmew|Ganonmew]] ([[User talk:Ganonmew|talk]]) 18:47, 5 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
::More likely he's ignoring us. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:Nutta Butta|Nutta.]] </small> 18:52, 5 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::Most likely. [[User:Ganonmew|Ganonmew]] ([[User talk:Ganonmew|talk]]) 19:22, 5 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
You guys really have no fuckin idea why he is ignoring you guys. In the past, he told me in [http://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Marth_(SSB4)&diff=prev&oldid=711788 edit summary] saying it's not worth discussing with Miles who can't properly define subjective. This is because of different views about subjective. If it is not worth discussing with Miles, then it is not worth talking to you guys about his problems. To my conclusion, this indicates that you guy have a problem with him, not Brian. If he is ignoring you guys about that shit, so what? Are you going to continue that way? Hell no. Unless you are talking about something specific, you're wasting your time. If you have nothing else to say, then stop doing this. [[User:Luigi540|Luigi540]] ([[User talk:Luigi540|talk]]) 19:47, 5 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
Also guys. Note how he is using an IP to edit recently just to avoid getting notified by the shit that we send him. If you guys are going to continue annoying him, he might as well even ask for his user account to be deleted just like PSIWolf did. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Mega Man X SNES sprite.png|19px]] The Non-stick 21:41, 5 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
@Luigi540 and Dots: We can't just let him go free to violate [[SW:NPA]]. Unless he shows signs of ceasing, we don't need to stop. [[User:Ganonmew|Ganonmew]] ([[User talk:Ganonmew|talk]]) 12:23, 6 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
:Actually, I'm with Luigi540 and Dots here. If he doesn't give a shit, then that's his problem. Forcing him to take care of it is only gonna make it worse. [[File:Aidanzapunksignature.png|20px]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Master of Speed and Aura'''</span>]][[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] 13:13, 6 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
== Archiving == | |||
I'm not going to get on your case or anything but since your talk page is again 75 KB big, you might want to consider [[SW:TALK#Archiving|archiving]] again. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Mega Man X SNES sprite.png|19px]] The Medic 21:53, 5 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
== Can't believe I'm saying this but.... == | |||
I apologize for the way I've been acting towards you in the past (I am [[Special:Contributions/45.37.25.25]]). Not only have I been criticizing you for the wrong reasons, I have been criticizing you way too much. I still feel like you should keep your cool (and you've been quite non-inflammatory for a while), but I realize I am also at fault. Please forgive me. [[User:Ganonmew|Ganonmew]] ([[User talk:Ganonmew|talk]]) 14:55, 20 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
== Why do you do this shit == | |||
Will you please stop offending me on the Discord server, please? It's not cool, and I don't appreciate you behaving like that torwards me. Okay? [[User:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: red;">'''Iron Reggie,'''</span>]] [[User talk:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: yellow;">'''the Easter Bunny Warrior'''</span>]] 03:23, 23 March 2018 (EDT) | |||
You also need to archive your talk page. It has over 80,000 bytes! I'm surprised someone didn't notice already. [[User:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: red;">'''Iron Reggie,'''</span>]] [[User talk:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: yellow;">'''the Easter Bunny Warrior'''</span>]] 03:25, 23 March 2018 (EDT) | |||
Actually, scratch that. Someone did notify you, so you need to do it. [[User:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: red;">'''Iron Reggie,'''</span>]] [[User talk:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: yellow;">'''the Easter Bunny Warrior'''</span>]] 03:26, 23 March 2018 (EDT) | |||