Forum:General proposals/Archive 4

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Welcome to the SmashWiki Proposals page.
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Using the tabber for stages and moves

The tabber will be used for overhead shots of the stage in each game it is in. For example, Hyrule Castle would look something like this. Additionally, alternate forms of the stage (such as the two boxing ring designs), or different transformations may be used as well. I also added in a tabber for Peach Bomber, making it show screenshots of both Peach Bomber and Daisy Bomber in Ultimate. However, like with the stages, I don’t know if it should be for the characters or the game. Lou Cena (talk) 00:34, 6 March 2019 (EST)

Support

1. I do think the tabber should be used for stages and moves, but I’m unsure of which way to use it in. Alternate forms, transformations, different characters, or different games? Or a combination of the three? Lou Cena (talk) 00:14, 6 March 2019 (EST)
2. Why not? It's been done for characters, and all past iterations just get thrown into gallery. SugarCookie 420 19:03, March 12, 2019 (EDT)
3. I don't even see why this require a discussion. Maybe you want to be careful because you met quite a lot of opposion on other topics, but this time, it's just a minor change that would improve the overall design of the pages without any downside. I think you should simply go ahead and do it, I don't think anyone will ever complain about that idea. YoshiRyu (talk) 19:32, March 12, 2019 (EDT)

Part of why I thought this needed discussion was for two things:

1. Some images are missing, such as Marth’s Critical Hit in Ultimate

2. I don’t know if I would do it for alternate forms of stages, or the stage across all of its appearances in the series. For characters, again, do I do it for it across all of the games they’re in, or use it just for Ultimate images , but with characters sharing the move using it. And what do I do about characters ehose moves differ slightly in function, such as Gale Boomerang? Do they still go there or are they being split? Lou Cena (talk) 11:32, March 13, 2019 (EDT)

Although I am in favor of doing so (as I've done for a few Final Smashes), we should currently refrain doing so from the moves that are being discussed to be merging or splitting until a derision is reached for those. Wolff (talk) 14:59, March 13, 2019 (EDT)

My comment was more about doing it for the stages (I completly forgot that this went on with the moves). So for the stages, I think you should just go ahead and do it, no one will complain. YoshiRyu (talk) 16:03, March 13, 2019 (EDT)

I see no downside with doing it for stages. Wolff (talk) 16:05, March 13, 2019 (EDT)

I think the returning stages should work like Link and Zelda's main character pages. Their appearances in Smash go OoT, TP, and BotW/ALBW, but their pages go in the reverse order as BotW and ALBW are their most recent. I think the stages should go Ultimate/4/Brawl/Melee/64. Wolff (talk) 01:41, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

Oppose

1.

Neutral

1.

Removing "Origin Game" sections in Spirit lists

Along with artwork sources within the section, this type of information was added at a time when the game was yet to release and information on spirits was limited. Since then, the Origin Game section has become obsolete due to the game's own "Series" listing, but spirit lists continue to use the former. I propose for the removal of the Origin Game sections in these lists, and if necessary substitute them with the Series names from the "Series Order" sections. Nokii — 17:35, 8 March 2019 (EST)

A simple example of how spirit list tables would be affected if this proposal was accepted can be found here, both with and without the Series Order section for comparison. Nokii — 21:21, 9 March 2019 (EST)

Merging and Splitting Moves

Recently, someone pointed out that the Final Smashes of Daisy, Isabelle, Dark Samus, and Dr, Mario are more or less identical to Peach, Villager, Samus, and Mario's. Someone else also pointed out that moves such as Pit's and Dark Pit's are on the same page despite being classified as different moves. I figured that rather than having individual discussions on them that we could instead tackle them all at once.

So the questions are should they merge or split?

Final Smashes

Final Smashes 1: Should Daisy Blossom, Phazon Laser, Doctor Finale, and Dream Town Hall be merged with Peach Blossom, Zero Laser (Samus), Mario Finale, and Dream Home respectively?

1. Support: I’m the one who added those tags in the first place. They function exactly the same as their parent moves. There’s no reason for them to be separate. Lou Cena (talk) 03:36, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

They do have differences from their counterparts, not to mention different names. Wolff (talk) 21:04, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

Final Smashes 2: Should Roy's Critical Hit get it own page as it functions different from Marth and Lucina's? With that in mind, should Zero Lazer stay as two separate pages for Samus' and Zero Suit Samus'?

1. Support: It’s an entirely different move. Saying that Roy and Marth share the same final smash is like saying that Pikachu and Robin have the same move assigned to different inputs. I would argue that Wario-Man should also be split, since it works entirely differently. Lou Cena (talk) 03:36, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

Although characters like Bowser and Little Mac FS in Ultimate use the same characters (Giga Bowser/Mac) but function differently, they also have different names from previous installments. I would be more inclined to agree if Wario's was like theirs. Luigi and Rosalina keep one page as only the name changed, not also the function. I see no problem with Roy's Critical Hit being with Marth and Lucina. In fact, now that we can use more than one photo in the info box, perhaps we should merge both of Samus' and Zero Suit's Zero Lasers? Wolff (talk) 21:04, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

Oppose see Final Smashes 3 Xtra Talk, Edits. 23:24, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Final Smashes 3: Should Zero suit samus's zero lazer page, which currently has its own page, be merged or should roys critical hit be split. one of these 2 things need to be done, because they are 2 cases of conflicting interest. Either way whatever happens something needs to happen to one of the 2 pages to keep things consistent. Xtra3678 (talk) 09:57, 11 March 2019 (EDT)

That is true. I think the Zero suit Samus and Samus' Final Smashes should be merged as it is called the same thing. Had it shared a name but was used by two different characters that did not share a universe, then I think it would make sense to separate them. I think it is more confusing merging pages with different names or separating those that share one. If I want info on Critical Hit, I would go to the page. If I wanted info on Roy's, I'd go down the page to Roy's. Wolff (talk) 21:50, March 11, 2019 (EDT)

I Support making critical hit and Zero Laser all be on one page, due to the fact that if you look up the page for zero laser, you'd be able to find info on both zero lasers in only 1 page. However i can also see how separating 2 different characters pages would be beneficial, and instead would make it so that critical hit for roy has its own page. Either way there's no standard and there needs to be one soon. Xtra3678 (talk) 07:47, March 12, 2019 (EDT)

I briefly mentioned the situation regarding Luigi and Rosalina's FS, Bowser and Little Mac's FS, and Wario's FS. Going by that, I feel it would make more sense to to have one page for Zero Laser and one page for Critical Hit. If we were to separate them, what would be stopping us from having three different pages for Critical Hit, Landmaster, or Tri-force Slash regardless of similarities or differences? Wolff (talk) 22:38, March 12, 2019 (EDT)

This is also a very good reason to merge the pages because we all know that stuff like the different landmasters, or triforce slashes don't deserve their own page, and luigis and rosalinas smashes only have a name change and are otherwise identical, so they also don't deserve their own page. Wario-man Probably deserves its own discussion, but i don't see why you would bring up little mac, considering it is a different smash functionally, and has a different name (Giga mac ssb4, Giga mac Rush SSBU). either way i still think its a good idea to merge zss and samus amd keep critical hit the same.Xtra3678 (talk) 08:15, March 13, 2019 (EDT)

Final Smashes 4 Warios final smash is named the same thing, wario man, in all 3 games with final smashes, but in brawl and ssb4 they are nearly identical and is a transformation final smash, but in ssbu his final smash is a cutscene smash and is used entirely differently, almost as if it is a entirely different move. The only problem is that due to them having the same name, they share a page. The question i bring is if it would be smarter to keep the 2 smashes merged, or if it were smarter to split the page into a brawl and ssb4 page and a ssbu page.Xtra3678 (talk) 12:41, March 13, 2019 (EDT)

Wario's was originally decided to stay the same alongside Bowser and Little Mac's being split. This stemmed from someone asking about how Diddy's new Final Smash got a new page. However, Diddy's was separated due to functioning differently along with a new name, much like Bowser's and Little Mac's. On that, Wario's was decided to stay the same as it had the same name despite functioning differently. Not to mention R.O.B.'s. I still prefer the decision that was reached. Wolff (talk) 14:58, March 13, 2019 (EDT)

Special Moves

Special Moves 1: Should Gale Boomerang, Silver Bow, Electroshock Arm, and Super Sheet be separated from Boomerang, Palutena Bow, Upperdash Arm, and Cape?

1. Oppose: I wanted to split Roy’s FS because it was so drastically different from Marth’s. These moves, however, are the same move. Honestly, I want the bows, Fire Bird, Dr. Tornado, Agility, Double edge dance, and whatever else is split to be merged. They’re the same move. A different name or a very minor function change isn’t enough. They have the same origin, unlike Chrom and Ike’s up specials. Lou Cena (talk) 03:36, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

The Fire Fox/Bird/Wolf not only have different names, but function differently too. I do not think the Gale Boomerang should be with the others, it's a different boomerang with a different name and a few different properties. I think Agility and Double edge dance should be separated from whatever moves that they share similarities with. I do think the Pit and Dark Pit's bows and arms should be separated. It seems weird to me to bump them together if they are not named the same thing. Wolff (talk) 21:04, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

Neutrual I feel that these moves have enough defferences to deserve their own page, but they also feel like they still fit on the page they are already on. I also oppose moving Gale boomerang because I feel it isn't different enough.Xtra Talk, Edits. 21:41, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Special Moves 2: Should Remote Bombs be merged with Bombs?

1. Oppose: While I did say that I didn’t want similar moves to have separate pages, this one is different enough to warrant its own page. It detonates based on another tap, and is thrown automatically. While it looks similar, comparing them is like comparing Wolf and Fox’s blaster. It doesn’t work.

But you are saying that you want other moves to be merged despite having only minor differences ("minor" can also mean the amount of differences). The Blasters could actually be merged to be similar to the StarFox characters' Landmasters. Wolff (talk) 21:04, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

1. Oppose: Bombs and remote bombs are about as similar in name and they explode. They otherwise act completely differently and defiantly deserve their own page. Xtra3678 (talk) 11:17, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Agreed. Wolff (talk) 21:24, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Special Moves 3 Should wolf's special moves be merged with fox/falcos page or kept due to their special properties. Xtra Talk Edits 23:37, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Special Moves 4 Should the moves be merged because they are "similar", or separated because there are "differences". Wolff (talk) 22:45, 9 March 2019 (EST)

Another thing is their origins. Some moves wanting to be merged, despite being similar, have different origins. Likewise, some wanting to be separated, despite having differences, have the same origin.

Regardless, the opinions of more than just two people are needed for this to really go anywhere. (I also feel the way the paragraphs/sentences in this discussion are layout is confusing) Wolff (talk) 21:04, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

General Decisions

Oppose to all merging : I think all moves, regardless of how similar they are, should have their own page. You never know what move could be changed in the next update, and merging two pages that you may need to unmerge later is a bad idea. Plus some details may be relevant to a single one of two similar moves, like the move origin, or a trivia point. YoshiRyu (talk) 05:24, March 12, 2019 (EDT)

That appears to be what is in general favored by almost everyone, but i feel that we still need a bit more discussion for this before we go through with it. Xtra3678 (talk) 07:28, March 12, 2019 (EDT)

So YoshiRyu, are you saying that all the moves named something different should be split, and moves that are named the same should be merged? If so, I agree, especially with the possibility regarding updates. If not, could you elaborate more on it? Wolff (talk) 22:38, March 12, 2019 (EDT)

Neutrual: I think we can split the different character's moves and merge the iterations of the same moves. The page names can be unified as the latest name or "Move (character)".--Capstalker (talk) 22:52, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Do you mean like separating the Gale Boomerang from the regular Boomerang and merging the StarFox Blasters? Wolff (talk) 23:11, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

I personally think that the blasters and boomerangs are good as they are, but obviously I'm not the entire oppinoun of the wiki, just I think that not splitting boomerangs but keeping wolf's separate from falco and fox is goodXtra Talk, Edits. 23:27, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Approve merging final Smashes with the same name and keeping ones with differnt names separate.

Approve Agreed. Wolff (talk) 01:42, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

Final Smashes:

• Daisy Blossom - Merge
• Doctor Finale - Keep separate
• Phazon Laser - Merge
• Zero Laser - Keep separate
• Dream Town Hall - Merge
• Critical Hit - Separate Roy's
• Wario-Man - Don't separate

Special moves:

• Agility - Keep separate
• Double-Edge Dance - Keep separate
• Wolf's special moves - Keep separate
• Boomerang - Don't separate

MHStarCraft 20:41, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

Could you elaborate on your reasoning for each move MH? Wolff (talk) 20:58, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

My reasoning for this is that Diasy Blossom, Phazon Laser, and Dream Two Hall are the same visually while Zero Suit Samus' Zero Laser definitely functions differently from Samus' Zero Laser. Doctor Finale is more of a case where it's visually different while Roy's Critical Hit is performed differently. Boomerang seems fine as is, as yes, there are three boomerang users but other than there being two types of them, they all function the same. MHStarCraft 10:35, March 16, 2019 (EDT)

I personally think that it should go

Final Smashes:

• Daisy Blossom - Keep separate
• Doctor Finale - Keep separate
• Phazon Laser - Keep separate
• Zero Laser - Merge
• Dream Town Hall - Keep separate
• Critical Hit - Don't separate
• Wario-Man - Don't separate

Special moves:

• Agility - Keep separate
• Double-Edge Dance - Keep separate
• Wolf's special moves - Keep separate
• Boomerang - Don't separate

My reasons For this is simply names. All the final Smashes listed I want merged have the same name and all I didn't have different names. For specials I don't want to merge any because 1. They have different names and 2. Most have different properties. The only one I want to keep is boomerangs and that's because there are 4 different boomerangs and while they all have different names other than Gale (which has minor physics changes) all act 100% the same. Plus it just makes sense for them to be on the same page. Xtra Talk Edits 22:01, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

1. I do not know what 4th Boomerang you're referring to, but the item boomerang does already have its own page as it is an item and not a move. I think the Gale (used by TP Link) has enough differences from the regular boomerang (used by Young Link and Toon Link) to warrant its own page on top of having a different name. Wolff (talk) 17:14, March 16, 2019 (EDT)
2. Out of the different named Final Smashes, Daisy Blossom is the only one I could consider merging as all of Daisy's special moves are shared with Peach's. However, I am not entirely sure that it should count for Final Smashes as Daisy's would then be the only one. She is unfortunately the most carbon copy out of the Echos/Clones when it comes to specials. All the other Final Smashes with different names have different origins, and have at least one difference that effects game play (if not just how much damage it deals in comparison). Wolff (talk) 17:14, March 16, 2019 (EDT)
3. Regarding Wolf's Special moves, I think the blaster and reflector should be merged with Fox's along with Falco's as they have the same name. If people are concern with major differences of the moves between characters, the page can be like the Landmaster where it separates the page by character. It goes into detail regarding Fox's Landmaster, then Falco's Landmaster, and finally Wolf's Landmaster. (Similar to Critical Hit) And because of the table of context, it would not be hard to quickly go to the section of one's character of choice. Wolff (talk) 17:14, March 16, 2019 (EDT)

1. the 4 boomerangs are young and ssbm links boomerang, Gale, toon links, and botw link. Thinking about it now though, Gale boomerang defiantely deserves it's own page, and is definitely different enough from the other boomerangs.
2. I feel we should not merge Daisy's due to the fact that she is the only one who has a similar enough final smash to consider merging and still has a different name and aesthetics, and thus I feel it is not a good idea to merge them still.
3. I still feel like more discussion is required for wolf because I have no clear idea on what should be done, Because wolf has some specials with different names and yet has the same function as fox Fire Wolf, different name and different function (I forgot this one's name but it's side special), same name and same function Reflector, and same name different function Blaster. There's just a lot of variables that there's just no clear answer for him.
4. Finally we just flat out shouldn't merge moves like agility and double edge dance because not only do they function differently, but also have different names, which is just more reason to split Gale boomerang. Xtra Talk Edits 00:36, March 17, 2019 (EDT)

So currently that would mean:

1. Keep Final Sames with different names separated and merge those that have the same name. (which means Zero Laser gets merged, Wario-Man and Critical Hit stay as one page, the the rest stay as is)
2. Keep special moves with different names separated, and merge those that have the same name. (which means Gale Boomerang and Remote Bombs separated are from the regular Boomerang(s) and Bomb(s))
3. Which would leave the StarFox blasters and reflectors as well as the Kid Icarus bows and arms, and the Mario capes undecided regardless if they fall in #2.

Does the pretty much sum it up for now? Or do those in #3 actually do fall under #2 as well? Wolff (talk) 20:17, March 17, 2019 (EDT)

Yeah that pretty much sums it up. Do you think we should start implementing it?Xtra Talk Edits 08:22, March 19, 2019 (EDT)

Probably Wolff (talk) 15:42, March 19, 2019 (EDT)

I changed all what was discussed. (I do not know how to redirect Samus and Zero Suit's FS on the FS shortcut though) Wolff (talk) 23:29, March 19, 2019 (EDT)

Merging and Splitting Moves 2

Special Moves

Should Fox, Falco, and Wolf's Blasters and Reflectors be merged, and should Silver Bow and Electroshock Arm be separated from Palutena Bow and Upperdash Arm? If we're going by what was decided with all the other moves, then the StarFox moves should be merged and the Kid Icarus moves be separated. However, Palutena has a move named reflector while Inkling has one named blaster. If the StarFox moves do get merged, then they should possibly be named "Blasters (StarFox)" and "Reflectors (StarFox)". Although, naming it like that may not be necessary as those moves of Palutena and Inkling do not have their own pages. Wolff (talk) 23:36, March 19, 2019 (EDT)

I disagree heavily with both of these. Frankly, I’m dissatisfied with the fact that moves would be merged if they have the same name. What matters more is a move’s function. Otherwise, Pikachu’s dwon b and Robin’s neutral b would have to be on the same page because they’re both called “Thunder”. I would heavily suggest re-splitting Zero Laser, split critical hit, and keep Wolf and Falco’s specials separate while keeping Dark Pit’s merged. Lou Cena (talk) 01:45, March 20, 2019 (EDT)