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| == Dr. Mario and Mario in SSB4 == | | == Dr. Mario and Mario in SSB4 == |
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| The Direct just confirmed [[Ken Masters]] is joining Smash as Ryu's echo. Someone add him! [[User:infernape612|<span style="color:orange">infernape]][[User talk:infernape612|<span style="color:orange">612</span>]]</span> 11:59, 1 November 2018 (EDT) | | The Direct just confirmed [[Ken Masters]] is joining Smash as Ryu's echo. Someone add him! [[User:infernape612|<span style="color:orange">infernape]][[User talk:infernape612|<span style="color:orange">612</span>]]</span> 11:59, 1 November 2018 (EDT) |
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| == Luigi is not a semi clone ==
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| Luigi is not a semi clone because he has completely different moves than Mario. [[User:Crocodile Dippy 2|Crocodile Dippy 2]] ([[User talk:Crocodile Dippy 2|talk]]) 10:52, 10 December 2018 (EST)
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| :He's been a semi-clone ever since ''Melee'', Croc. The changes made to Mario in ''Smash 4'' still apply to Luigi as well, even if his grabs and throw have been drastically changed. Plus, two of his moves (up tilt and forward tilt) were slightly recloned to resemble Mario's again, and he still has the same up and back aerial animations as Mario as well. [[File:SonicSpeed48ChristmasSig.png|17px]][[User:SonicSpeed48|<span style="color: darkgreen ;">'''Sonic'''</span>]], [[User talk:SonicSpeed48|<span style="color: red;">'''the Cheerful Speedster'''</span>]][[File:ChristmasTimeTigger.png|17px]] 11:07, 10 December 2018 (EST)
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| ::Luigi's status as a semi-clone has been subject to debate since SSB4. If we look at his current moveset, he shares a similar neutral, back, and up air, forward and up tilt, up and down smash, and similar standard and up specials. Meanwhile, his jab, dash attack, down tilt, forward smash, forward and down aerial, side and down special, final smash all variation of his grabs, all throws, running and walking animations, helpless animation, idle animation, screen KO, character physics, and jumping animations are completely unique. Furthermore, some of his moves like Super Jump Punch have radically different properties that further distinguish him from his red counterpart. These differences put him more in line with Wolf. [[User:OldLink5|OldLink5]] ([[User talk:OldLink5|talk]]) 11:38, 10 December 2018 (EST)
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| :::No I mean Luigi is not a semi clone in Ultimate, not in other games. [[User:Crocodile Dippy 2|Crocodile Dippy 2]] ([[User talk: Crocodile Dippy 2]]) 19:18, 10 December 2018 (GMT)
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| ::::Personnaly, they sould not be considered semi clone anymore, they have completely different moveset and property, Fox/Wolf share more than Mario/Luigi.[[User:Jf811|Jf811]] ([[User talk:Jf811|talk]]) 11:53, 13 December 2018 (EST)
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| It is very difficult in general to draw the line at which a character is ''no longer'' a semi-clone. I have [[User:Toomai/Cloneosity|a project]] that attempts to do so, but until I can complete it, things should stay as they are for now. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Pan-Galactic 10:45, 14 December 2018 (EST)
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| I think it's more straightforward that we think. Clones are characters like Daisy, or Richter, or Lucina, who share '''virtually all''' the main '''attributes''', body frames, and attacks with their source, with a different visual design, maybe a few different animations sans taunts and victory poses, and MAYBE a few, minimal gameplay tweaks. So you don't really play them differently from their source. These clones are NOT balanced standalone.
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| For semi clones, it's any character who is based on, but with significant changes to either attributes, attacks, skeleton etc. I think Luigi, Wolf, Pichu, Dr Mario, Isabelle etc. all fall into this. With Dr Mario, his attributes and properties changed so much that playing him like regular Mario isn't viable, so he is basically a unique character in tier lists and strategies. Pichu doesn't share a single animation with Pikachu now despite it's basic moves having a passing resemblance. Wolf has similar special moves but many differences in his mechanics, even if he is based off Fox. These characters ARE balanced standalone.
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| Non clones are NOT directly based on another character. Rosalina for example isn't based off anyone. So is Palutena or R.O.B or Greninja, or Bayonetta. --[[User:SmashingAlbert|SmashingAlbert]] ([[User talk:SmashingAlbert|talk]]) 05:46, 15 December 2018 (EST)
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| == Wolf in Ultimate ==
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| Sorry, if you're still going to list Lucas and Luigi in the Ultimate clone section, then you have to also list Wolf. The three of them are certainly a step above clones and semi-clones but it's pure favoritism to single out Wolf as special. He's still a character who has moves (all specials and final smash) clearly derived from another (Fox) and not anymore unique than either Luigi or Lucas compared to their original. [[Special:Contributions/72.89.170.85|72.89.170.85]]
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| :Agree, Mario/Luigi and Ness/Lucas are clearly now different from each other more than Wolf/Fox. [[User:Jf811|Jf811]] ([[User talk:Jf811|talk]]) 10:38, 14 December 2018 (EST)
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| Please read the section on Wolf in Brawl; it explains that Wolf's relationship to Fox is very unclear and hard to compare under the rules that work for other characters. Until we have enough time/resources to determine whether this holds true for Ultimate, things will stay are they are. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Xanthic 10:42, 14 December 2018 (EST)
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