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Forum:Competitive namespace reorganization (edit)
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{{proposal}} | {{Forumheader|Proposals}}<!-- Please put your content under this line. Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes ~~~~ --> | ||
{{proposal|passed}} | |||
I feel there's been a lot of interest lately over tweaking the dissonance between the current treatment of smashers, crews, and tournaments. There's a couple ways we can go about this. Let's have an official on-wiki discussion. | I feel there's been a lot of interest lately over tweaking the dissonance between the current treatment of smashers, crews, and tournaments. There's a couple ways we can go about this. Let's have an official on-wiki discussion. | ||
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:Just put everything in mainspace. They're articles on the Smash Bros. series, why keep them segregated? | :Just put everything in mainspace. They're articles on the Smash Bros. series, why keep them segregated? | ||
===The discussion=== | ===The discussion: Part 1=== | ||
There's too many options right now for a typical <code><nowiki>#'''Option Q''' ~~~~</nowiki></code> to be effective. I think the best idea at the moment is to thin the herd. So instead, vote for which options you do '''not''' want to see. Don't just vote for everything except what you do want to see; this is for eliminating the bad ideas and leaving two or three good ones. Once we've cut it down I might make a new page for the "yes" process. You could theoretically raise an idea I haven't thought of, and that's okay too, it just might get things a little messy. | There's too many options right now for a typical <code><nowiki>#'''Option Q''' ~~~~</nowiki></code> to be effective. I think the best idea at the moment is to thin the herd. So instead, vote for which options you do '''not''' want to see. Don't just vote for everything except what you do want to see; this is for eliminating the bad ideas and leaving two or three good ones. Once we've cut it down I might make a new page for the "yes" process. You could theoretically raise an idea I haven't thought of, and that's okay too, it just might get things a little messy. | ||
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[[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Trumpeteer 20:16, 29 August 2017 (EDT) | [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Trumpeteer 20:16, 29 August 2017 (EDT) | ||
-- | {|class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" | ||
!Collapsed part 1 votes in here | |||
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*'''Exclude: 3, 4, Ø, X''' I don't like the idea of squishing crews in with smashers. I do think ''something'' should be done. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Trumpeteer 20:16, 29 August 2017 (EDT) | *'''Exclude: 3, 4, Ø, X''' I don't like the idea of squishing crews in with smashers. I do think ''something'' should be done. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Trumpeteer 20:16, 29 August 2017 (EDT) | ||
*'''Exclude: 3, 4, possibly 6, Ø, X''' Deleting the smasher namespace sounds like the worst idea possible, I agree with all of Toomai's points above, and 6 just seems like a lot of work for relatively little gain. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 20:33, 29 August 2017 (EDT) | *'''Exclude: 3, 4, possibly 6, Ø, X''' Deleting the smasher namespace sounds like the worst idea possible, I agree with all of Toomai's points above, and 6 just seems like a lot of work for relatively little gain. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 20:33, 29 August 2017 (EDT) | ||
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*'''Exclude 3, 4, 5, 6, Ø and X'''. Changing the existing namespace would be a time-consuming, and merging crews in with Smashers sounds a bit silly. They'd be best on their own. [[User:BaconMastre|<span style="color: Crimson;">'''Bacon'''</span>]][[User talk:BaconMaster|<span style="color: Maroon;">'''Mastre'''</span>]][[File:BaconMasterSig.png|16px|link=]] 08:43, 31 August 2017 (EDT) | *'''Exclude 3, 4, 5, 6, Ø and X'''. Changing the existing namespace would be a time-consuming, and merging crews in with Smashers sounds a bit silly. They'd be best on their own. [[User:BaconMastre|<span style="color: Crimson;">'''Bacon'''</span>]][[User talk:BaconMaster|<span style="color: Maroon;">'''Mastre'''</span>]][[File:BaconMasterSig.png|16px|link=]] 08:43, 31 August 2017 (EDT) | ||
*'''Exclude 3, 4, 5, 6, Ø and X'''. I'm gonna go down why I think each other option shouldn't be done. 3) It makes no sense to put crews with smashers, they're completely separate entities 4) see 3. 5) It seems a logical idea at the first glance but again, crews and tournaments are completely separate and under a "competitive" banner, it would most likely become cluttered and confusing. 6) It would DEFINITELY become cluttered and confusing then. Ø) something DOES probably need to happen as tournaments are taking over mainspace. X) No, no chance. [[User:BSTIK|<span style="color:#33fcff">'''BST'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/BSTIK|<span style="color:#33fcff">'''IK'''</span>]] [[User talk:BSTIK|<span style="color:#33fcff;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #33fcff">(Talk)</span>]] 09:57, 31 August 2017 (EDT) | *'''Exclude 3, 4, 5, 6, Ø and X'''. I'm gonna go down why I think each other option shouldn't be done. 3) It makes no sense to put crews with smashers, they're completely separate entities 4) see 3. 5) It seems a logical idea at the first glance but again, crews and tournaments are completely separate and under a "competitive" banner, it would most likely become cluttered and confusing. 6) It would DEFINITELY become cluttered and confusing then. Ø) something DOES probably need to happen as tournaments are taking over mainspace. X) No, no chance. [[User:BSTIK|<span style="color:#33fcff">'''BST'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/BSTIK|<span style="color:#33fcff">'''IK'''</span>]] [[User talk:BSTIK|<span style="color:#33fcff;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #33fcff">(Talk)</span>]] 09:57, 31 August 2017 (EDT) | ||
Just want to note that 1 or 2 seem to be the most acceptable paths for most people at this point. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 09:42, 31 August 2017 (EDT) | *Just want to note that 1 or 2 seem to be the most acceptable paths for most people at this point. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 09:42, 31 August 2017 (EDT) | ||
:I agree but I am going to let Toomai make the final call on this one. This is his thing after all. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 10:09, 31 August 2017 (EDT) | *:I agree but I am going to let Toomai make the final call on this one. This is his thing after all. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 10:09, 31 August 2017 (EDT) | ||
*'''Exclude 3, 4, 6, Ø, and X'''. To explain exactly ''why'' I disagree with those... For 3: It makes absolutely no sense to me to put crews under the smasher namespace. "Smasher" has always basically implied one to me, not a group of people. For 4: Admittedly, there may be some bias surrounding this one, but I just feel like the smasher namespace is already pretty tight as is. It just fits in so well, and to change it would just be....strange, for lack of a better word. For 6: Basically same reason as 4. For Ø: While I will say things have seemed fine to me as is, I can't deny I feel like the way we deal with tournament articles has been a little haphazard, to say the least. For X: Same reason as 4 and 6. Plus, it's overall just a stupid idea in general and anyone who agrees with that idea should be ashamed of themselves. [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:Green; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:Blue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px blue">'''Flare'''</span>]] [[File:Disaster Flare signature image.png|20px]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:SkyBlue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 23:44, 31 August 2017 (EDT) | *'''Exclude 3, 4, 6, Ø, and X'''. To explain exactly ''why'' I disagree with those... For 3: It makes absolutely no sense to me to put crews under the smasher namespace. "Smasher" has always basically implied one to me, not a group of people. For 4: Admittedly, there may be some bias surrounding this one, but I just feel like the smasher namespace is already pretty tight as is. It just fits in so well, and to change it would just be....strange, for lack of a better word. For 6: Basically same reason as 4. For Ø: While I will say things have seemed fine to me as is, I can't deny I feel like the way we deal with tournament articles has been a little haphazard, to say the least. For X: Same reason as 4 and 6. Plus, it's overall just a stupid idea in general and anyone who agrees with that idea should be ashamed of themselves. [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:Green; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:Blue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px blue">'''Flare'''</span>]] [[File:Disaster Flare signature image.png|20px]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:SkyBlue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 23:44, 31 August 2017 (EDT) | ||
*'''Exclude 4, 6, Ø, X''' Late to the party on this. And I am partly responsible for this vote's creation, so it seems even worse for me to be behind. Anyway, my stance is that Smashers: needs to be unchanged semantically. This has been the system for about a decade. Therefore, anything that needs to be put out of the mainspace shall be placed into the new category. It should not be a catch-all group since that would scrap Smashers. In terms of 3 and 5, I see another option which is essentially a hybrid of the two put together. So. At the very least creating Tournament: seems like the best option in my opinion. What dictates an article being placed under it needs to be ironed out. For example, [[Tournament]] would look ''really'' odd if it were not kept in mainspace or had its display title adjusted to hide the category (defeating the purpose). As a closer/side note, whether it is regional or national is less relevant than if it's directly on the subject of a specific tournament or series in my opinion. (Such as if it uses a tournament-related infobox template) [[User: RobSir_zx|<span style="color:orange">Rob</span>]][[User talk:RobSir_zx|<span style="color:blue">'''Sir '''</span>]][[File:RobSir-sig.jpg|16px]] [[Special:Contributions/RobSir zx|<span style="color:red">zx</span>]] 00:17, 1 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
*'''Exclude 3, 4, 6, Ø, and X'''. I like the idea of an overhaul but I have a problem with most of these plans. '''3.''' is potentially misleading, '''4.''' implies that all Smashers are competitive players (some, like {{Sm|Toomai}}, are not. '''6.''' is a bad idea for the same reason, '''Ø''' is bad because we need a change, and '''X''' is a bad idea because people could be led to believe that aspects of the competitive community are an actual part of the games themselves. The other proposals are great though. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">HUAH!</span>]]</b> 15:34, 7 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
*'''Exclude 3, 4, 5, 6, Ø'''. Squishing things into one big thing seems like a bad idea, but making more or simply getting rid of the namespaces altogether seems like a better idea. If you put them together, it seems confusing to me to people who try to use our site. [[User:F0rZ3r0F0r|F0rZ3r0F0r]] ([[User talk:F0rZ3r0F0r|talk]]) 17:36, 13 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
|} | |||
Part 1 is over. Here are the results: | |||
*Options 4, Ø, and X have near-unanimous dislike. They are rejected immediately. | |||
*Options 3 and 6 are less-heavily disliked but are also clearly eliminated. | |||
*Option 5 has a lot of dislike, but much less so than the above options. | |||
*Options 1 and 2 are clearly preferred. | |||
===The discussion: Part 2=== | |||
In essense, we've already decided that tournaments will be put into a new namespace. Now we just have to decide what to do with crews - and that basically means by itself we're down to options 1, 2, and 5. So time for the more traditional vote. | |||
====Option 1: Create a <code>Tournament:</code> namespace.==== | |||
Vote here if you think crews are (currently) best left alone in the mainspace. | |||
# To Be honest here, do crews really need a namespace, I don't see why they need one. Sure, they're a fairly large part of the Smash community, but I still don't think they meet the importance of Smasher and tournament namespaces, therefore Option 1 is probably the best way to go. [[User:Skittles03|Skittles03, the scummy fox main]] ([[User talk:Skittles03|talk]]) 13:39, 16 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
#Frankly, I have to agree with Skittles. Since we're fairly strict as to what constitutes a crew as notable, we don't have a lot of Crew articles to begin with, which kind of renders giving them a namespace to begin with pointless in my eyes. [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:Green; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:Blue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px blue">'''Flare'''</span>]] [[File:Disaster Flare signature image.png|20px]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:SkyBlue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 03:48, 17 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
# Agree with the 2 users above me, I think crews are not important enough [[User:Patzui|Patzui]] ([[User talk:Patzui|talk]]) 04:22, 17 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
# Although crews are important to quite a few people (I'm in one as well), crews are overall a too minor part of Smash Bros. to need their own namespace. Tournaments are a large part of Smash Bros., especially in this era, where major tournaments are showing up on a monthly or even weekly basis now. --[[User:Meester Tweester|Meester Tweester]] ([[User talk:Meester Tweester|talk]]) 01:27, 20 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
#Echoing Flare and <s>Taste the Rainbow</s> Skittles; I don't see crews needing a namespace. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: black;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: orange">'''the Spooky Rurouni'''</span>]] 17:14, 22 October 2017 (EDT) | |||
====Option 2: Create a <code>Tournament:</code> namespace and a <code>Crew:</code> namespace.==== | |||
Vote here if you think crews should get their own namespace. | |||
'''Extra note:''' Please include in your vote (ideally at the beginning) what you think the crew namespace should be called. The options are '''Crew''', '''Group''', and '''Team''', but you can suggest something else if you think you can get others to agree. | |||
# Just call it "crew" I guess. ''[[User:Alex Parpotta|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex Parpotta'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex Parpotta|<span style="color: red;">'''flying lobster!'''</span>]]'' 13:38, 16 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
#'''Namespace as Crew.''' [[User:MHStarCraft|'''<font color="skyblue">MH</font>''']][[User talk:MHStarCraft|'''<font color="blue">StarCraft</font>''']] [[File:Mega Man X SNES sprite.png|19px]] 13:47, 16 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
#Slight preference is for this over option 1, but I consider "Competitive:" unacceptably awkward. I guess "Crew:" would be the best choice here, although we should consider ahead of time whether this includes sponsor pages. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 18:49, 16 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
#I'm reluctant in general about separate namespaces, however it seems we are down to only these 3 options. This seems like the only good option in my opinion, because if we're going to have a Tournament: name space, a Crew: should also be made, since those don't feel like they belong on mainspace. A Competitive: namespace could work, but smashers are also important in competitive, aren't they? So this is the only rational decision in my opinion. [[User:F0rZ3r0F0r|F0rZ3r0F0r]] ([[User talk:F0rZ3r0F0r|talk]]) 19:28, 16 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
# Call it "Crew" and I will approve! [[User:Dragonfirebreath25|Dragonfirebreath25]] ([[User talk:Dragonfirebreath25|talk]]) 19:34, 16 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
#I know of a few tournaments and crews that have the same name, most notably Royal Flush. Give them a separate namespace '''and call it ‘crew’''', or at the very least, get them out of the mainspace, which should be about just the game itself. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|'''Furry Nation''']]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the Internets go! :3''']]</span> 05:09, 17 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
#'''Namespace called "Team"''', consisting of both crew and sponsor pages. Firstly, a "Competitive" namespace would just lump everything together so it would be pretty inconvenient, and there can be tournaments and crews of the same name as mentioned above. Now referring to the Team namespace specifically, crews and sponsors have differences (crews are run by players only, whereas sponsors are run by or have involvement from non-players), so simply calling the namespace "Crew" would be informal. "Team" refers to both of them however, so it makes sense to call the namespace that. Also leaving crews and sponsors in different namespaces would be inconvenient and probably confusing to most people. [[User:Scr7|Scr7]] ([[User talk:Scr7|talk]]) 12:46, 17 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
#This is so the mainspace is only reserved for the contents of the games. [[:User:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|ZeldaStarfoxfan2164]] ([[User talk:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|talk]]) is a never lover boy 20:13, 21 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
#Per Scr7. [[User:Ganonmew|<span style="color: green;">'''Ganonmew'''</span>]], [[User talk:Ganonmew|<span style="color: green;">'''The Evil Clone'''</span>]] 07:55, 23 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
#I've decided I do not care what we call the crew/team/sponsor namespace as long as we make a move and stick em in their own namespace. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 20:04, 23 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
#'''Namespace as "Crew."''' We already have a crew [[crew|page]] on the wiki so it seems like it would make sense. Not to mention that some people might be confused somehow with [[Team Battle]]. Regardless of the name, I think it would be best to implement both of these changes as soon as possible. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">HUAH!</span>]]</b> 10:47, 29 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
#Probably the most consistent option. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 10:02, 2 October 2017 (EDT) | |||
# '''Namespace as "Crew".''' The issue I have is that crews will come and go and no one is able to be there to know when it has disbanded. Can we set a parameter where if nothing has changed after a year or two that we can flag for current update of crew and move them to the discontinued crew? While having the rest be labeled as active crews maybe? That way we won't have to filter through so many out-of-date materials. And if you want to categorize even more, split the crews off into SSB, SSBM, SSBB, PM, and SSB4. Just a thought, nothing more. [[User:Lv20ninja|<span style="color: Green;">Lv20ninja</span>]] [[File:Lv20ninjaDonkeyKongHeadSSB.png |19px]] [[User talk:Lv20ninja|''<span style="color: blue;">'''(talk)'''</span>'']] 08:08, 3 October 2017 (EDT) | |||
# I think “Team” is the best of the available options for me. - [[User:The Gamer 91|The Gamer 91]] ([[User talk:The Gamer 91|talk]]) 10:01, October 6, 2017 (CT) | |||
# '''Namespace as "Crew"''' per many of the above arguments. [[User:Bwburke94|Bwburke94]] ([[User talk:Bwburke94|talk]]) 23:38, 6 October 2017 (EDT) | |||
# '''Namespace as Crew''' Although I understand the logic of crews being too minor to deserve a namespace, that's more the fault of the decision to have articles on crews in the first place. Having articles about crews open their pages with "Tournament:" would be confusing and misleading. I would prefer the prefix "Sponsor:" if the articles were just ones such as [[2GGaming]] and [[VGBootCamp]], but the inclusion of pages like [[Ha Ha You Lose]] and [[San Diego Love! ♥]] throws a spanner into this. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="darkorange">Toast</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="seablue">'''ltimatum'''</font>]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 09:01, 11 October 2017 (EDT) | |||
# '''Namespace as "Team"''' for the reasons already given by others above. [[User:Sniffnoy|Sniffnoy]] ([[User talk:Sniffnoy|talk]]) 17:44, 13 October 2017 (EDT) | |||
# '''Namespace as "Team"''', feels the most natural. -[[User:Menshay|Menshay]] ([[User talk:Menshay|talk]]) 12:04, 14 October 2017 (EDT) | |||
# Per everyone. [[User:Penro|<font color="red">'''Pen'''</font>]][[User talk:Penro|<font color="black">'''''ro'''''</font>]] 10:34, 10 November 2017 (EST) | |||
====Option 5: Create a <code>Competitive:</code> namespace. Put both crews and tournaments into it.==== | |||
Vote here if you think crews should share the tournament namespace, which would be named appropriately. | |||
# The reason that Smasher: was created in the first place, I imagine, was to distinguish in-game content from out-of-game content, and one namespace is sufficient for this. Furthermore, are we really sure that there aren't even more subjects relating competitive play, which will not fit under the very specific namespaces of smasher, tournament, and team? – [[User:Smiddle|Smiddle]] 16:05, 8 November 2017 (EST) | |||
===The decision=== | |||
It is pretty clear that option 2 is the winner. | |||
*There will be a <code>Tournament:</code> namespace. This is basically unanimous. | |||
*There will be a <code>Team:</code> namespace, with <code>Crew:</code> acting as a redirect (as Image: does to File:). I know this isn't the consensus, but I believe it is the better option, and having the redirect available means it doesn't really matter too much. | |||
Next steps: [[User:eXemplary Logic|XL]] (which if you don't know, is a bot that I run) will be handling the mass-move of all tournament and crew pages. However, this can't be done immediately; there needs to be a fair amount of preparation (such as generating the lists of "from pages" and "to pages"). Once the bot is ready to go, [[User:Porplemontage|Porplemontage]] (the owner/developer) will be contacted to add the namespaces. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] Da Bess 18:39, 11 November 2017 (EST) | |||