Editing Talk:Professionals

'''This is the talk page for the locked article Professionals.  If you want to make any changes, please ask here.'''

==What to do with this page?==
I really don't think this page is a good idea. First, what constitutes a "professional"? Whomever any editor thinks should be listed here? And once we've started listing "professionals", where do we stop? Do we list everyone who's ever played that character with any semblence of skill? Why is Pictish Freak listed here when said he quit over a year ago? Same with Masashi, who only plays for fun anymore (which sorta goes against the standard definition of "professional").

Does winning a local tournament make you a professional? What about placing 32nd at a large event like 0C2? Or do you just have to be well-known? Doesn't it seem like we're using different criteria for listing Isai and Ken as we are for listing G-reg, KevMoney, and Kawn? (not to pick on anyone personally).

My point is this: a wiki is supposed to be a collection of factual information. This page is meaningless and will draw unending flames without a definite idea of what it should consist of. --[[User:Nealdt|nealdt]] 20:17, August 1, 2006 (GMT)

Yeah, I agree. Destroy it. [[User:Tuth|<span style="color: blue;">Tuth the tough Mii</span>]] [[User talk:Tuth|''<span style="color: red;">You got owned!</span>'']] [[Special:Contributions/Tuth|''<span style="color: cyan;">Visit Mint Brick Wiki!</span>'']]

==My rebuttal==
Not to make further excuses or anything, but for the list, a lot of the reasoning about my choices really came as a result of my experiences of trying to find pro vids. Way back when when I was a huge nublet, I used to think things like DSF was a Capt falcon player, and the only known Falco player in the US was Caveman because there wasn't any real reference for me to look up.  

A few months back, the gamefaqs had a good discussion about what we need in the new CoSK; and we all put forth our ideas.  One of the ones circulating in my mind was a pro list so then players can look up and watch vids of the pros who play their character.  Now, I'm not saying my list is completely perfect, but I will say that a lot of my choices on the list IS based on availability of vids (which is also why FastLikeTree and Azen's Luigi/Link slipped my mind <--List was asked for before SA VII).  I also wanted the list to include players from all over the globe and from different regions because, even though everyone plays the same characters/stages/etc., there is a definite difference in people's style of play as you go more and more overseas.

One of my friends use to play Unreal Tournament professionally, and he told me that American players generally have problems against Europeans because their styles and strats are different.  And this game is online, and every player in the world plays the same maps and uses the same weapons yet there's apparently a difference between Americans and Europeans.  Likewise, if we compare guys like Chillin or Masashi, you can see an obvious difference of playstyles.  I think if we include playstyles that are this drastically different, it'll be better for players who want to learn since they'll be able to observe new strategies and decide which moves and which strats are more effective. (yeah, I copied and pasted from gamefaqs, but whatev).

But Nealdt, what you said I think is true. There should be a clearcut definition of what a pro is.  But I think that we should also keep in mind that for certain characters (like Zelda), there really isn't a great amount of legitamate pro players who choose to use her and have vids up of her.  That's why I included guys like Kawn who player her pretty well and can let budding players see how she can be played.

As for Pictishfreak, I also wanted to add players who are more or less synonymous with the character they play. If you name a character like Marth and ask someone to name a pro associated with Marth, they'll most likely name Ken because he's tied so close with that character. While they may not be the best players in the world, I think it's equally important for us to add these figures in as well.

And as for Masashi, apparently retirement in video games just means you don't practice but still go to Smashfests and Tourneys.  In fact, Masashi just came first in a recent tourney.--[[User:Mr Ng|Mr Ng]] 21:07, August 1, 2006 (GMT)

: I would actually feel better if we used a different term for this page. "Professional" obviously has lots of baggage associated with it, and will undoubtedly lead to debates on whether player X is a professional. Perhaps this page should be called "Well-known Smashers", or something similar. The intent here is to help new community members learn who the big names are, correct? Not to cause hard feelings or debates over professionality? If so, then I'd say a name change is in order. --[[User:Nealdt|nealdt]] 23:43, August 1, 2006 (GMT)

: I also would to prevent this wiki from becoming a place for people to inflate their egos. We're already seeing pages for everyone and their grandmother; this site would turn into a terrible waste of potential if the current trend of making [[nealdt]] and linking [[Professionals]] to it continues. --[[User:Nealdt|nealdt]] 23:46, August 1, 2006 (GMT)

: That's cool man. As long as we both understand where we're both coming from, I think that it'll all work out.--[[User:Mr Ng|Mr Ng]] 02:39, August 2, 2006 (GMT)

: I think "professional" should be an official title. When I think of professional gamer, I usually think StarCraft players from Korea or sponsored CS clans. A professional Smasher should likewise be sponsored by a notable association such as MLG. It might not be exactly fair; I don't know how big this sort of thing is in Europe, and I'm assuming that it's pretty big in Japan, and not everyone can go out to tournaments, but "professional" is, in a NPOV, clearly an official title and should be only loosely tied to skill, at best (of course, no one's going to hire a crappy Smasher). --[[User:Greenblob|Greenblob]] 18:10, June 11, 2007 (EDT)

There is a new tier list, should this all follow the order it goes in now?[[User:Iggy K|Iggy K]] 07:18, August 7, 2006 (GMT)

==Hoshikabi & HoshinoKirby==
These aren't the same player????   The romanization of the japanese spelling of Kirby is kaabii.

*headdesk*  Yeah, you're right man.  Hoshikabi = HoshinoKirby.  Good call there :)  *is an idjot*

==Pain in the @$$==
There is a thing somebody can do to make it look more wikified, but it's a pain in the @$$. It is doing the following:

=== Anychar ===
==== Somewherelandia ====
''<nowiki>[[Person1]], [[Person2]], [[Person3]]</nowiki>''

to

=== Anychar ===
==== Somewherelandia ====
<nowiki>*[[Person1]]
*[[Person2]]
*[[Person3]]</nowiki>

get what I mean? Then plz, fix it. I'm too lazy myself. [[User:AltAcnt|Smiddle]] / <small>[[User talk:AltAcnt|talk]]</small> 11:23, November 12, 2006 (GMT)

:I'll start fixing it xD 
[[User:AltAcnt|Janitor]] 8:59, May 7, 2007 (GMT)
:Fixed.  You're welcome.
[[User:AltAcnt|Kefka]] 12:41, May 8, 2007

==Obselete==
:: I think that we definitely need a definition of a Pro Smasher. However either with or without one, this page remains obselete, and in fact, ugly and unappealing. We already have [:Category:Pros]], and these two pages have few similarities. I think this page should be done away with, while the Back Room takes up the issue in the meantime. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 01:04, December 5, 2006 (GMT)

==Clean up!==
Every time I click onto this page, I keep seeing this ugly, terribly designed page. So I plan on cleaning it up, make something easier to look at and look up for reference. Although I do believe the topic above this one is very important, I still plan on making this thing pretty. Maybe we could just slap a label on this thing. The "neutrallity of this page may be questionable" or some such thing. I'd like to talk about it in the Back Room, but I really don't go on SWF that much, so I'm really not noticed. Case in point: I will make it a project to clean up this page and make it more practical. [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 04:09, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
:Did you note what I said? We do not need both [:Category:Pros]] and this Professionals page. I think that if this page is to be cleaned up, it should instead be deleted and merged with [:Category:Pros]]. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 09:39, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
::So how do you recomend we merge pages? How can we best represent the pros in a category, easy to find by character they use, and by country like how an encyclopedia should? Or is even reference by country necissary? [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 17:55, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
:::We could do subcategories for the character specific pros, like [[:Category:Ice Climbers Pros]. Then if enough people thought that region is important enough, we could also do things like <nowiki>[[:Category:NorCal Pros]]</nowiki> or [:Category:Europe Pros]. These would be subcategories of [:Category:Pros]], that way everything would be automatically updated with the addition of new pros.
::::I like the idea that the guy above said.  It's sounds simple and clean.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 21:51, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
:::::I think the idea sounds anything BUT simple and clean. We'll have too many categorys for a single article. Which, although by Wikipedia standards, is not out of the ordinary, I just think it's very messy and can be difficult due to the fact that actually finding the category themselves can be quite a task in itself. So I object it, but I don't deny it. Majority rules. Now, if it WERE to be put into play, would there also be a <nowiki>[[:Category:SoCal Smasher]]</nowiki> as well as <nowiki>[[:Category:SoCal Pros]]</nowiki>? [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 22:03, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
::::::Regional Smasher pages wouldn't be necessary, because when looking at representatives from a region, you would not want to find the dregs, but the stars. If done, we would probably begin with the most notable areas, i.e., Japan, NorCal, SoCal. One problem I see is of sub-regions. Would we do Pacific West along with SoCal/NorCal? What of the US as a whole? We could either exclude some of these, or make all of them and just have some players in multiple regions, such as [[Ken]], who would be in both Pacific West and SoCal. I suggest that we do all notable regions. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:24, December 17, 2006 (GMT)

Before anything else, we need to determine what exactly is a pro. --[[User:MaskedMarth|MaskedMarth]] 22:05, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
:The Smash Community needs to determine what exactly a pro is. I would recommend the SWF Back Room, but I don't have access. My next pick would be Gamefaqs...No. [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 22:12, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
::I feel that the question is EXCLUSIVELY up to the Back Room. Too bad I'm not in it... -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:24, December 17, 2006 (GMT)
::: Neither am I.  A bit of an impediment, isn't it?  Somebody in the Broom should request help for SmashWiki!  It would be quite helpful if the Broom adopted SmashWiki as one of its main projects.  How much else do they do there, anyways?  They only make a tier list once a year, these days. --[[User:MaskedMarth|MaskedMarth]] 00:22, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
::::I can't say I think the BRoom/SBR is qualified to do this.  They have rarely looked for people to put into their group for a while, most of the time the people who do get in are just friends of current members who get in for that reason, and I know for a fact that there are some people in the SBR/BRoom who are only in there because they bought a premium membership on SWF.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 07:20, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
:::::Also, I don't think (a) regional category(ies) is/are necessary.  I was thinking the character specific ones would be good.  That would be nice and organized and not nearly as much work as regional categories.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 07:22, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
::::::If not the BRoom/SBR, then who? Perhaps we could arrange a collection of players to discuss the topic privately elsewhere. I can think of many members who would have valuable opinions. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 08:39, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
:::::::Methinks we could appoint a committee, kind of like with the [[Smash Panel Power Rankings]], to determine who the, say, fifty most important international players are.  Then we can rename this "famous players" or something.  "Professionals" is kinda icky word choice - an unknown, poor player can play for money, but a Smash icon could be an amateur.  Better that we set the boundaries for talent clearly. --[[User:MaskedMarth|MaskedMarth]] 15:09, December 18, 2006 (GMT)

::::Oh, and in response to Simna, the BRoom said it would be looking for members this fall. I guess they have two days to make a topic and choose a bunch of inductees.  But I'm getting off-topic. --[[User:MaskedMarth|MaskedMarth]] 15:11, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
:::::I agree with removing the Pro pages for Famous Player pages...its probably the safest thing to do as there will be much less fuss over who is famous than who is pro.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 22:20, December 18, 2006 (GMT)
::::::What then would constitute famous players, then? Must they be known worldwide, or regional? And does anyone have ideas for a more appealing title for that? Sounds a little boring, doesn't it? -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 00:01, December 19, 2006 (GMT)

:Title is the least of out concerns for the moment, Del. And I believe the famous shouldn't refer through out a place (be it globally, regional, ect), but rather well known through out a Smash Community, such as Gamefaqs or SWF. And then picking only 50 most important hardly seems like an enyclopediac issue. It should be a constant update as to who is in, and who isn't. But that brings up the classic problem "who is famous" rather than "who is pro". [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 00:44, December 19, 2006 (GMT)
::Those players who are definite pros(like those on the US Power Rankings) should fall into the famous category automatically.  Others could include all of DBR whose combo vids are widely famous, Nealdt for the creation of his Tio program, BACH for his famed camera coverage, players known for character specific fame, superdoodleman for his works with AR and frame data, and more(these are just examples)--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 10:08, December 19, 2006 (GMT)
:::Would you include regional rankings as well?
:::: That brings up the smaller subregions issue. I mean, my home region of North Dakota doesn't currently have a ranking list, though PFKS10 could assemble one for the Dakotas. That's a topic for another day, however. Point is: not all smasher live in ranked regions. You can't just do that, but on the global scale, it's all fair game. Simna: You don't give yourself enough credit, you'd naturally be on that last for the GSC. [[User:Oddeven2002|Oddeven2002]] 16:47, December 19, 2006 (GMT)
:::::Don't mind my feeble attempts at modesty^_^--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 08:03, January 4, 2007 (GMT)

I also have some comments. See [[#Pain in the @$$]]. &ndash; [[User:AltAcnt|Smiddle]] / <small>[[User talk:AltAcnt|talk]]</small> 15:57, January 4, 2007 (GMT)
:I think that risks making the page too long, vertically.  I like it better horizontally, for the time being at least.  Perhaps the best solution would be to make a table a la [[Smash Panel Power Rankings]] and see how that could work out. --[[User:MaskedMarth|MaskedMarth]] 00:38, January 5, 2007 (GMT)

OK, we've all just sort of batted these ideas around for a while, but I think it is time to act on them. Let's go ahead and do both the Famous Players category and the Character Pros categories. What exactly should we name the famous players page? There are some famous community members who don't actively play, many of whom are famous for things outside of but related to Smash, such as [[Gideon]], [[nealdt]], [[ZodiakLucien]], [[SuperDoodleMan]]. "Famous Players" doesn't address that. I'll start on taking this page and splitting up the players on it into their respective Character Pro pages. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:52, January 15, 2007 (GMT)
:Not sure if anyone's noticed, but I've started the [:Category:Character specific players]] category and subcategories. I'm not limiting it to skill of the player, instead I'm focusing on how skilled they are when compared to other players of the same character. For this reason players like [[Kawn]], DRGN,[[Mexican]], and [[Azn_Lep]] will be included. So far I have done Bowser, CF, DK, Yoshi, Young Link, and Zelda. Let me know what you guys think. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 00:05, January 23, 2007 (GMT)
::Compared to other non-casual players(players that use advanced technique) of the same characters, DRGN, SideFX, Choknater, and yourself will have a very hard time justifying being in any pro list even a character specific ones.  While I can't monitor who goes in to these categories completely because I don't know all of them personally, but I do know those players I mentioned and I can safely say that they are not prepared for pro status even if that is just in comparison to other non-casual players of the same character.--[[User:OMNIVECTOR|Simna ibn Sind]] 06:24, January 31, 2007 (GMT)
:::Are you taking into account what I've said about how they advance their character's metagame? DRGN is probably the best example of this, because so few players actually use a variety of Zelda's attacks. Some players have said that DRGN surpasses Kawn in that respect (but not altogether skill). If you took this into account I'll accept your revision. And for the record I think DRGN is the most qualified of the ones you removed. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 01:10, February 1, 2007 (GMT)

Kay well, i just fixed the page a little bit...i didn't really like how the list looked before. It's just temporary until actually clean up is done. -- [[User:Janitor|Janitor]] 10:17, May 20, 2007 (GMT)

==Pro vs. Pro-Am: New, Hip Lingo to Define "Pro" Within the Microcosm...==
I would like to believe that the wheels upon which the Smash community turns are being driven by the community members themselves. As willing contributors to this wiki (a utility practically built for special interest knowledge compilation), we do have the power of the International Standards Organization in our own little way. The terminology and definitions used can be decided and implemented ''by'' us and ''for'' everyone who's too lazy to do it themselves. If and when this wiki "officially" opens up to the public with a steady stream of supporters and advertising, I see no reason that it shouldn't be the one-stop standard source for all competitive Smash-related information. And if we're the ones setting the standards, that means they can be changed, too. 

My proposition will likely be met with some dissent, but hear me out on this. The word '''professional''' has held a pretty strict historical definition and when it started being applied to sporting events, a simple but rigid distinction was made between professional sports and amateur sports: funding. Professionals are paid; amateurs are not. 

Most people know this already and despite the fact that there are a good chunk of legitimately professional Smashers, there is doubtlessly all kinds of people in the community who hardly believe that such a thing even exists by its empirical definition. When Brawl comes out and Smash goes through its massive popularity/worldwide exposure phase again, this list of Pros is going to be vandalized and reverted so many times that we'll regret creating it in the first place. We all know how this community is--since there's no strict definition on "professional," you can bet that everyone and their dogfish won't hesitate to add their own name to the list.  

In 2004, a UK website called [http://www.demos.co.uk Demos] published a pamphlet called ''The Pro-Am Revolution'', which, among other things, detailed the rise of the "professional" as a symbolic role model in society and the subsequent enthusiastic following which resulted in the "professional amateur" coming into existence. It sounds like an oxymoron, but the two terms are ''not'' mutually exclusive--or at least they shouldn't be, with respect to the overwhelming number of Pro-Am Smashers. 

A "pro-am" is reasonably generalized as a "professional" who doesn't get paid--someone who plays at a professional level, could compete in a similar skill bracket with paid professionals, but just doesn't have the cash and the fiscal sponsorship. The Olympic Games have caused a lot of controversy over amateurism and professionalism in sporting events in the past, however as the distinction between the two became more blurred, their policy was renewed in 2004 and now the only Olympic sport that doesn't feature professionals-by-definition is boxing. Times are a-changin'.

'''So...'''

I propose that we keep the current and accepted definition of "professional" and make that definition '''very clear''' in this section of SmashWiki. What makes a professional, you say?

*An MLG contract for Smash is a shoe-in, I'd say. 
*Anyone from the [[Smash Panel Power Rankings]] is legitimate.
:Of course, this condition comes with some baggage. This list is strictly ranking the top 25 players in the United States, which although legitimate, raises the question as to how many of these random "power ranking" lists that have come up since then deserve to be considered as "pro" criterion. 

:Surely the top 25 European players deserve to be called professionals, and at least the top 10 in Canada and Australia. With a little coordinated effort, I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to publish a proper list; there's gotta be some people outside of the US who have an expansive knowledge of what the tournament scene is like in their own country and isn't just in it to stroke their own ego. 
*Japanese people? 
:Hahahaha all of them!...no but seriously, we run into a communication barrier with the Japanese smash community. I'm pretty sure we don't have an [[SmashBoards]] correspondent who knows how players are ranked, seeded and paid out in Japan all the time but it's probably safe to assume that they have a much larger community than it may seem on "our internet." Therefore, I have to assume that any videos or names of Japanese smashers that make their way into the hands of the English-speaking Smash community have gotta be the pros and that's about all the criteria we can judge on for now. Besides, watching Fumi and Aniki videos...without sounding too unencyclopedic...you can just tell. :^)

'''But wait...'''

What about the pro smashers that are generally accepted as pros but don't make the power rankings or have an official contract!?

I say we put a dollar value on it. Straight up. If player ''x'' earns ''y'' number of dollars per year through playing competitive Smash, congrats, you get your pro status at SmashWiki. 

I don't know what the dollar value should be. We'd have to discuss it and come up with the average size of the pot and prize distributions of ''major'' tournaments as well as factor in a reasonable yearly travel itinerary for someone who probably deserves to be called a professional, yet has a life as well. (I'm not gonna define what constitutes a "major" tournament here, but 50ish players is probably a good bet; dozen-man bi-weeklies for 2 bucks a piece sure doesn't count)

'''Pro-Ams'''

Then, when all of those little kinks are worked out and we have finally come up with a definition that isn't going to have people printing off the article to bring it to their contractual law office for clarification on the terms, we can make a new section for <nowiki>[[professional amateur|Pro-Ams]]</nowiki>. This is where I expect some dissent because at face value, it looks as though we'll run into precisely the same problem with defining "pro-am" as we have with "pro" just. I think it ought to go like this:

:A '''professional amateur''' [[smasher]] is a person who plays the game at a competitive level, demonstrates a high level of technical skill and is reputed as such by their own local Smash community. 

Or something. 

This still leaves enough criterion for "pro-am" status that we won't have every person with an SWF account making a user page in the Pro-Am category. There has to at least be other competition in your area for your skills to be weighed. Most smashers grossly overestimate their own ability, but those that have that local competition at least offer a more realistic assessment of their own skill. It never hurts to have citation for your own Pro-Am status and using my own discretion, I could very easily pick out the participants at my own bi-weeklies that deserve it and those who don't. Someone else's opinion may or may not be valid, but it's better than creating an article with no basis whatsoever. 

Obviously, you have to be realistic about SmashWiki and the community in general. Anyone can edit it and indeed, anyone will. Since we can't prevent the creation of new content of any kind, the best thing we can offer are guidelines on how it should be done. Not everyone will listen, but I have no doubt that more than one person who was considering adding to the "pros" section would find the accompanying link to Pro-Am even more appropriate. 

If the majority of people agree with my scary new terminology idea, let me know and I'll tackle it straight away, cleaning up and categorizing every article in [[:Category:Smashers]]--you have my word! :^) 

-- [[User:Randall00|Randall00]] 23:35, January 31, 2007 (GMT)

:We've started to address this page in particular, and it will soon be done away with. The more correct pros list is in [:Category:Pros]]. For now leave this page alone, as many of the players here are being transferred into the [:Category:Character specific players]] page. There has already been talk of limiting this to the [[Smash Panel Power Rankings]] who along with common MLG entrants can be surely said to be pros. What about the [[NorCal Power Rankings]] and [[SoCal Power Rankings]]? I personally also consider these players pros. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:46, February 1, 2007 (GMT)

::Who are you and where is this "talk" you speak of? The Smash Back Room that they didn't let me back into for some reason? I'd just like to see someone working on this and there's so many Talk pages spread across this wiki that it's hard to keep track of what's going on. The discussion needs to be localized somewhere if any progress is to be made. 

::With respect to the NorCal and SoCal power rankings, yes you are right, they probably are all worthy of pro status, but I can just hear all the other regions piping up with, "Well THOSE guys are pros, why can't everyone on my Central Ohio Power Rankings list be pro too!?" Incidentally, I imagine most of the NorCal and SoCal players probably have fulfilled at least one of the other criteria anyway.

::-- [[User:Randall00|Randall00]] 01:47, February 1, 2007 (GMT)


:::That was me, Delphiki. I forgot to sig. I can't remember where the talk was concerning it, but the point is what is important. There aren't many players who are plainly, obviously, and undisputably professional. I can't speak for the SoCal rankings, but what often happens in NorCal is that many of the players rarely attend tournaments where there are not better players. As such they don't earn money very often. This does not mean they are not pro in my estimation. I'll take this up a bit further down to keep it easy to follow. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:46, February 1, 2007 (GMT)


:I do disagree with a dollar value for one reason. Here is an example. A local player by the name of [[Tomi-X]] has never defeated a pro in a tournament. However he occasionally skips out on competitor-heavy tournaments which he knows he can not win and instead will go to tournaments with more entrants but no skilled players. He will then walk away with somewhat large amounts of money. This player is not deserving of the title pro, in terms of ''skill''. But in empirical terms, he is. This discrepancy convinces me that a dollar amount is not possible as a term of judgment.

:-- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 01:10, February 1, 2007 (GMT)

::Lots of people overvalue the "pro" label, but that's no reason to believe a clear-cut dollar value wouldn't be perfect for it. Sure, maybe that guy is a pro by definition. Good for him, he'll get on the list. Just like Shaquille O'Neal and Vanilla Ice. 

::Plenty of professionals don't "deserve" it, but when you get right down to the meat of the matter, real pros don't care about being considered a pro and the Smash community at large will recognize when a scrub makes it into the list and doesn't belong. Also, remember that it's a community-built and edited system, so it's really the community that decides who truly belongs in the list and many won't hesitate to strike someone from the list, even if he does meet all the defined requirements. 

::-- [[User:Randall00|Randall00]] 01:47, February 1, 2007 (GMT)


:::What you are saying is that although we can easily assign the label to those who fit the criteria, we still maintain the ability to make our own judgemnts outside of the criteria which will add and remove players according to the discretion of, I assume, a number of chosen community members whose opinion can be counted on. I think this is a good idea. So, who are we to choose for this group of members? The committee can then evaluate those players in the Pros Category and add and remove according to their decisions. As for this page, I have been moving many of the players here into their respective [:Category:Character specific players|Character Specific Pros pages]]. Once that task is done, I will put the page up for deletion. -- [[User:Delphiki|Bean]] 23:46, February 1, 2007 (GMT)

::::Well, I don't really think it's necessary to come up with all kinds of committees and decision-making groups in order to maintain a fairly accurate list of Pros. Again, because this is a community-edited compendium of information, anytime that someone whose deserving of Pro status comes into question, the issue would just be brought up on the discussion page, opened up for voting and cleared up in that fashion. Maybe I'll even make a little template we could tag on to certain pages specifying that this "may not represent a worldwide view of the subject. ([discuss]])". :^) 

::::-- [[User:Randall00|Randall00]] 16:30, February 3, 2007 (GMT)

'''Alright alright'''

Well. "Professionalism" is still confusing to a lot of people. Primarily, the [http://www.smashwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Super_Smash_Boys super smash boys.] I don't think they understand how competitive  smash really is, and to be honest, they play like they just picked up the game. I was a little rude on their discussion page, and for that, i apologize. I was fairly angry (and I still am) from their arrogance, but i know they're just misguided. For those who are to lazy to read it, they're basically saying they're professional because they beat event 51. They've never participated at a tournament, they've never played anyone out of their crew, they don't use advance techs, and they play like [http://youtube.com/profile?user=WillieEener this]. Adding themselves to the professional lists among actual pros like [[Rob$]] and [[KishPrime]].

I'm sorry Randall D: --[[User:Janitor|Janitor]] 03:28, June 2, 2007 (GMT)

I added a definition at the top, which should be changed as needed. Hopefully those who are on the list fit the definition or at least have fit the definition at one point (I know that many Smash Pros are retired temporarily). --[[User:Greenblob|Greenblob]] 09:31, August 10, 2007 (EDT)

== ¿Worldwide? ==

I don't see a single mexican smasher there, Mexico has champions.--[[User:Dyna|Dyna]] 03:11, February 24, 2007 (GMT)
: Feel free to add, if there's no doubt they are pros. {{User:AltAcnt/sig}} 09:26, February 24, 2007 (GMT)
:: No doubts, I have facts and general opinion of Mexican top players that might confirm if necessary. --[[User:Dyna|Dyna]] 10:16, February 24, 2007 (GMT)
::: Falco: Mexico: X-Twin, Fox: Mexico: X-Javi, Marth: Mexico: Bell, Reed, Batu, Peach: Mexico: E-X, Roy: Mexico: Reed, Samus: Mexico: WeX, Yoshi: Mexico: Yoshua. These are the ones I've added to the list--[[User:Dyna|Dyna]] 23:28, February 24, 2007 (GMT)
::::They don't even have articles. How is it that half the smashers in the world have their own SmashWiki articles, yet half the so-called "pros" on this list don't? Ah well, I'll just have faith in the complete obliteration of this article prior to the unveiling. -- [[User:Randall00|Randall00]] 17:20, February 26, 2007 (GMT)
::::: I will write their articles soon, they actually earn money winning tournaments and are recognized in México.--[[User:Dyna|Dyna]] 18:10, February 26, 2007 (GMT)
::::: Most non-United States smashers don't have articles (or their articles are [[bombsoldier|stubs]]) because the majority of editors are from the United States, but that doesn't in any way decrease the notability of smashers elsewhere (just means that we're regionally biased).  Better to have champion Mexican smashers than random American amateurs. {{User:MaskedMarth/sig}} 15:02, March 2, 2007 (GMT)
::::No kidding, the smashers that Dyna has mentioned are all really skilled players...

== Recent edits ==

While I do agree that this page needs to be purged, I disagree with many of the deletions. Many of the people that got deleted, although perhaps not exactly regarded highly in terms of skill compared to some higher level Smashers, still were professionals in the purest definition. Husband and Wife, for example, were on the MLG Pro Circuit and therefore must be considered professionals. I don't think I'm exactly qualified to edit the actual names on this page, but to those who do, when editing, please keep in mind the currently working definition of "professional gamer" that's at the top of the page. --[[User:Greenblob|Greenblob]] 11:15, September 3, 2007 (EDT)

== Pro Pretenders ==

Serously, we need to change it to "well known smashers", not pros. Like idiots add themselves as pros to put themselves with the pros. This areas is so going to get spammed a lot. If it isn't already, it needs to be watched carefully.

--[[User:Johnknight1|Johnknight1]] 8:05, September 6, 2007 (PT)

=='''Lock This For Mod, Admin, and BackRoomer use only, or something'''==

Seriously, we need to make this thread locked to admins, mods, and backroomers or something, not chumps. I'm not the best, but I can honestly say I'm better then most the people on there (the wanna be-pros; the '''REAL''' pros would kick my arse sooo bad). We need to have this page editable by only a few page, seriously. Maybe limit to people on regional power ranks, like people on the Nor and So Cal Power Ranks, people on the New York power ranks, etc. Or maybe just like 10 of the best players for each character or something. I don't know, but we need to seriously discuss this. Until everyone on that list is better then me, it is wrong.

That aside, I think we should try and make one for SSB64 pros, using the same templetes and regulations I suggeseted. Or we should come up with something for this page, and make a SSB64 copy or something. I don't know, I just hate seeing this page this way. I'd love to see a completely accurate version of this page (or near perfectly accurate), and one for SSB64 (same as Melee's one I suggested), and eventually Brawl. I just think we should try and find a way to fix this page, without these fools putting themselves, their best friends, and their grandmothers better then Isai and Ken on these God forsaken lists. ;)

--[[User:Johnknight1|Johnknight1]] 12:08, September 30, 2007 (PT)

:I agree. Smashwiki is a public encyclopedia, but there should be a limit.--[[User:Janitor|Janitor]] 16:41, September 30, 2007 (EDT)

:: Done. {{User:MaskedMarth/sig}} 21:37, November 2, 2007 (EDT)

::: Excellent. Is it possible if i am one of the privileged few? xD I've tried my best working on that page, removing dead links and non-professionals, formatting the page in a more organized manner, etc etc. --[[User:Janitor|Janitor]] 21:56, November 2, 2007 (EDT)

:::I was going to delete the whole thing and repopulate and clean it up from scratch which is a better solution overall, I think, but I guess it doesn't matter. --<font color="000023">'''[[User:Randall00|RJM]]'''</font> <sup>''[[User talk:Randall00|Talk]]''</sup> 11:57, November 3, 2007 (EDT)

:::: If you want to make a from-scratch article you could use the user namespace as a sandbox of sorts.  Unfortunately I can't change the access privileges of this page to allow particular members to edit (I can only make it all members or only sysops), so any suggestions will have to be made here. {{User:MaskedMarth/sig}} 20:08, November 8, 2007 (EST)

== In Indiana ==

Well, what qualifies do you to be a professional? I mean, in Indiana they aren't any competions in my area. If I were to go to one, (Which KishPrime directs, and that's about an 1hr and 15 minutes away,) record a match, post it on YouTube, and if I had "professional" qualitites, could I keep my page? I mean, I'm no different than [[Dark.Pch]], other than I have no videos. I'm currently trying to get some of my school friends to join here, but they seem uninterested. What am I supposed to do?

[[ethanrodgers223]

: Your suggestion would be fine.  It's too bad to not have any competition in your area, but without videos and other players' experiences with you, it's hard to objectively judge your skill. {{User:MaskedMarth/sig}} 20:05, November 8, 2007 (EST)



== Delete ==

This is a list of No pro players listed here contribute:

JohnnyBoy -Bowser, Samus , CAptian Falcon

: First of all, I don't see a signature so I have no idea who I'm dealing with here, but I'm pretty sure it's someone who has absolutely no idea who Johnnyboy is. In The Netherlands and even Europe he is considered to be the best Bowser player and among the best Captain Falcon players. If you still don't approve of him being on the list, you might as well delete every European smasher except Amsah.[[User:Utto|Utto]] 11:41, November 19, 2007 (EST)

==Linkje==

Linkje asked me to point this out. He is listed as being a Young Link professional, but he doesn't play Young Link anymore. He is now  a Ganondorf main. In The Netherlands he is considered a Ganondorf professional, but it's up to the editor of this page to decide if he belongs on the list. Either way, he should be deleted from the Young Link section. Thanks in advance. [[User:Utto|Utto]] 11:41, November 19, 2007 (EST)



That Kala , is not pro [[User:Zinnamon|Zinnamon]] 16:30, November 19, 2007 (EST) (and i think his page isn't even valid)

==Twin==

you guys can add twin to the falco pros if you want. I made his wiki now.

-Red

Ness only Nessby should be left . CJ is not Ness Main . CJ from all pages except Sheik's and Ganon's and Neptune Eclipse the Canadian Smasher should be removed from all  pages . and Kala also should be removed (thailand marth) .

You guys need to learn how to sig yourselves. End with these: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Janitor|Janitor]] 18:23, November 22, 2007 (EST)

[[Neptune Eclipse]] is a legitimately professional Pikachu main, but doesn't seem to compete under that name anymore. --<font color="000023">'''[[User:Randall00|RJM]]'''</font> <sup>''[[User talk:Randall00|Talk]]''</sup> 23:02, November 22, 2007 (EST)

==need protected edit==
Either need to convert the ex-templates to tabling, or need to unprotect for just a minute or two while someone else does it. =) --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] | [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] | <span class="plainlinks">[http://www.wowwiki.com/User:Sky2042 w]</span>) 04:41, February 3, 2008 (EST)

==A solid definition a Professional is needed.==
I think the definition currently posted is rather general. Does this mean anyone who makes money from tournaments is considered a professional? I know it is rather general because of there being no complete league for SSBM/SSBB as there may be with Warcraft III and Quake III, etc. Perhaps we should reserve pro for the top players that make large sums of money and amateur for players who make small amounts of money?

==Removal of Cort and other smashers==
EndOfSummer, I took out "Cort" and the rest of the smashers who you said were pros because they weren't considered [[SW:NOTE|notable]] enough. In fact, Cort's page got deleted after some time, [http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:Log/delete&page=Smasher:Cort see here]. I took out all of those Smashers because their own pages were all deleted at some point, and I decided to do some housekeeping. You can argue if you want that Cort is notable, but unless you have something that is considered notable by the policy I linked to above, I'm afraid that Cort will stay deleted and off the "Professionals" page. '''[[User:RAN1|<font color="darkred">R</font>]][[User talk:RAN1|<font color="navy">A</font>]][[Special:Contributions/RAN1|<font color="darkgreen">N</font>]]1''' 20:08, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
:why dont you look at north atlantic power rankings stupid RAN1. hes ranked #7. u dont kno anything about pros. just cuz theyre marked as red doesnt mean theyre "notable". tyrant doesnt have an article. hes one of the best brawl players <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:EndOfSummer|EndOfSummer]] ([[User talk:EndOfSummer|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/EndOfSummer|contribs]]) 20:13, 10 December 2009 (UTC)</small>
::I just restored Cort's article - no idea why it was deleted in the first place, as he's plenty notable. Also, EndOfSummer: [[SmashWiki:No personal attacks|please don't call other users "stupid"]]. '''''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Penguin</font>]][[User talk:PenguinofDeath|<font color="gray">of</font>]][[Special:Contributions/PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Death</font>]]</span>''''' 20:30, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
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	:I do disagree with a dollar value for one reason. Here is an example. A local player by the name of Tomi-X has never defeated a pro in a tournament. However he occasionally skips out on competitor-heavy tournaments which he knows he can not win and instead will go to tournaments with more entrants but no skilled players. He will then walk away with somewhat large amounts of money. This player is not deserving of the title pro, in terms of ''skill''. But in empirical terms, he is. This discrepancy convinces me that a dollar amount is not possible as a term of judgment.		:I do disagree with a dollar value for one reason. Here is an example. A local player by the name of [[Tomi-X]] has never defeated a pro in a tournament. However he occasionally skips out on competitor-heavy tournaments which he knows he can not win and instead will go to tournaments with more entrants but no skilled players. He will then walk away with somewhat large amounts of money. This player is not deserving of the title pro, in terms of ''skill''. But in empirical terms, he is. This discrepancy convinces me that a dollar amount is not possible as a term of judgment.

	:-- [[User:Delphiki\|Bean]] 01:10, February 1, 2007 (GMT)		:-- [[User:Delphiki\|Bean]] 01:10, February 1, 2007 (GMT)
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