Editing Talk:Marth (SSBU)

== About how much Marth has been buffed ==

Omega Tyrant are you sure he has only slightly been buffed? His buffs seem fault notable, decent at worst.
[[User:MetaKnightX6|MetaKnightX6]] ([[User talk:MetaKnightX6|talk]]) 18:24, July 6, 2021 (EDT)
:While the tipper buffs have helped, saying "significantly buffed" is definitely sugarcoating Marth's changes as his sweetspots are still somewhat inconsistent. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 18:37, July 6, 2021 (EDT)
:The changes are few and really minimalistic, especially compared to other buffed characters in patches. If you actually want a significantly buffed Marth, look at his list of patch changes in ''Smash 4''. [[File:034.png|20px]] '''<span style="font-family:Consolas"><font color="red">[[User:DrakRoar|DrakRoar]] [[User talk:DrakRoar|the game design dragon]]</font></span>''' 19:17, July 6, 2021 (EDT)
:Signifficantly would mean it's enough to shoot him up several tier placements (if Ultimate had a tier list that is). His changes were only a few minimal to decent buffs to only a few moves, which is no where near "signifficant". [[File:Toad.png|20px]] '''[[User:Omega Toad|<font color="deepskyblue">Omega Toad,</font>]] [[User talk:Omega Toad|<font color="blue">the Toad Warrior.</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Omega Toad|<font color="#7B5BEE">(I'm the best!)</font>]]''' 02:35, July 7, 2021 (EDT)

== About up tilt and dash attack ==

Are you sure up tilt is only capable of killing at ‘rather high percents’ as it kills around 130%, and that, frankly, should be enough to make it one of the strongest up tilts in the game. Also are you sure the tipper of dash attack is hard to hit, I find it fairly easy to get a tipper, unless you are talking about on a moving opponent (where it is definitely harder but still not super hard).

[[User:MetaKnightX6|MetaKnightX6]] ([[User talk:MetaKnightX6|talk]]) 11:50, July 7, 2021 (EDT)

== Omega Tyrant explain yourself  right now ==

Please explain what you mean by ‘no’, I AM STARTING TO GET SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE REMOVING SEEMINGLY LEGITIMATE EDITS FOR NO REASON. 
Like, it’s PURE FACTS that marths aireals are surprisingly average, fair kills at 180. Average is 160. Bair kills at 125-130. Average is only a few %s away. Nair and up air are fine tho. But dairs grounded spike kills of the top at 200. Average. I hate to put bad stuff about Marth, BUT THIS IS TRUE. And you know what I hate? People REMOVING WHAT SPENT TIME TO ADD WITH NO SAID REASON. If you explain yourself, I might be ok then.
[[User:MetaKnightX6|MetaKnightX6]] ([[User talk:MetaKnightX6|talk]]) 10:43, September 10, 2021 (EDT)
:"''I AM STARTING TO GET SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE REMOVING SEEMINGLY LEGITIMATE EDITS FOR NO REASON.''"

:Well we're pretty tired of you making bad misinformed edits and us having to clean up your shit, you haven't shown anything remotely close to the knowledge you try acting like you have. The last thing the wiki needs is to babysit an uninformed 12 year old that "mains" a ton of characters and never played in a tournament before insisting they know more than the pros.

:"''Like, it’s PURE FACTS that marths aireals are surprisingly average''"

:And this is why I wrote just "no" for the summary, because it is blatantly wrong.

:"'' Average is 160.''"

:What is this figure, what context, how did you find this "average"?

:"''fair kills at 180''"

:This seems true at just center with no rage, where it kills Mario at 183% with proper DI, but then at max rage it kills at 159%, and on ledge it kills at 135% with no rage and 115% with max rage. I do not know where you get the "160% is average" from, because I can ensure most fairs do not kill earlier than that, doing a quick eyeball over the roster I can say more than half of the cast do not have fairs that can ever kill earlier in any of those situations.

:"''Bair kills at 125-130. Average is only a few %s away.''"

:Again where is this "average" from? And from center of FD on Mario with DI and no rage, it kills at 139%, 120% with max rage, then on ledge with no rage and other conditions same it kills at 101%, 85% at max rage. This is not only a very strong move in general (killing most characters under 150% from center without rage and good DI is very good for any non-Smash move), it is certainly well above "average" for a bair. Like no one would call Sonic's bair "averagish" in kill power, you know how early that move kills? 140% from center with good DI/no rage, 122% with max rage, 103% on ledge with no rage, 89% with max rage, you're not going to be telling us a bair like Marth's that is stronger than Sonic's bair in all contexts is "averagish".

:"''But dairs grounded spike kills of the top at 200.''"

:First this isn't even right, it kills grounded Mario with good DI and no rage at 173%, 152% at max rage. Second, do you know how few meteors kill grounded opponents at good percents? Now lets take at look at where meteors are supposed to kill; offstage. At the height of FD's main platform, around where most meteors are landed, Marth's dair outright kills Mario at 47% with no rage, 38% with max rage. How does this compare to others? Falcon dair kills at 44% with no rage and 37% with max rage, killing only 1-3% later than a classic stud spike like Falcon's is certainly pretty damn good. How about K. Rool dair, that seems pretty decent for a spike right? That kills at 64% with no rage, 55% with max rage, Marth's is resoundingly stronger. What about Ivysaur's dair when sweetspotted, a move that gave a ton of people such grief? That kills at 68% with no rage, 56% with max rage, Marth's dair is again quite a bit stronger than such an infamous meteor. You should get the picture by now.

:Considering your immature response here, your age, and how long you have been a persistent problem, I'll make a final warning here; make such a clearly misinformed edit again and you'll be blocked for quite the while. We don't have the time to deal with your edits on such a frequent basis. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 15:51, September 10, 2021 (EDT)


This discussion is being continued on my talk page. Also it isn’t blatantly wrong that Martha Aireals are a average check YouTuber AacroX’s ‘who has the strongest videos’. Also, Ivysaurs meteor isn’t very strong, it just for some reason launches very far down for one without launching into tumbling and it’s infamous or it’s ability to hit under the ledge. Also K rools fair is fairly weak, you’re comparing it to weaker spikes. Those 2 from the top of my head should deal 10 and 12%. 15%, although it sounds like a minor difference of 3% is a significant difference just in case you didn’t know. Compare them to ones with the same damage output (15%). From the top of my head I can name Roy’s dair , ikes dair dededes dair, dks fair, wolfs dair, Mii gunners dair I think, maybe yoshis fair, and many more.
[[User:MetaKnightX6|MetaKnightX6]] ([[User talk:MetaKnightX6|talk]]) 17:46, September 10, 2021 (EDT)
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@@ Line 6: / Line 6: @@
 :The changes are few and really minimalistic, especially compared to other buffed characters in patches. If you actually want a significantly buffed Marth, look at his list of patch changes in ''Smash 4''. [[File:034.png|20px]] '''<span style="font-family:Consolas"><font color="red">[[User:DrakRoar|DrakRoar]] [[User talk:DrakRoar|the game design dragon]]</font></span>''' 19:17, July 6, 2021 (EDT)
 :Signifficantly would mean it's enough to shoot him up several tier placements (if Ultimate had a tier list that is). His changes were only a few minimal to decent buffs to only a few moves, which is no where near "signifficant". [[File:Toad.png|20px]] '''[[User:Omega Toad|<font color="deepskyblue">Omega Toad,</font>]] [[User talk:Omega Toad|<font color="blue">the Toad Warrior.</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Omega Toad|<font color="#7B5BEE">(I'm the best!)</font>]]''' 02:35, July 7, 2021 (EDT)
 == About up tilt and dash attack ==
@@ Line 44: / Line 43: @@
 :Considering your immature response here, your age, and how long you have been a persistent problem, I'll make a final warning here; make such a clearly misinformed edit again and you'll be blocked for quite the while. We don't have the time to deal with your edits on such a frequent basis. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 15:51, September 10, 2021 (EDT)
-::This discussion is being continued on my talk page. Also it isn’t blatantly wrong that Martha Aireals are a average check YouTuber AacroX’s ‘who has the strongest videos’. Also, Ivysaurs meteor isn’t very strong, it just for some reason launches very far down for one without launching into tumbling and it’s infamous or it’s ability to hit under the ledge. Also K rools fair is fairly weak, you’re comparing it to weaker spikes. Those 2 from the top of my head should deal 10 and 12%. 15%, although it sounds like a minor difference of 3% is a significant difference just in case you didn’t know. Compare them to ones with the same damage output (15%). From the top of my head I can name Roy’s dair , ikes dair dededes dair, dks fair, wolfs dair, Mii gunners dair I think, maybe yoshis fair, and many more. [[User:MetaKnightX6|MetaKnightX6]] ([[User talk:MetaKnightX6|talk]]) 17:46, September 10, 2021 (EDT)
-:::Again stop misusing talk pages, you don't split discussions up and you indent your replies properly.
-:::"''Also it isn’t blatantly wrong that Martha Aireals are a average check YouTuber AacroX’s ‘who has the strongest videos’''"
-:::Didn't we tell you before that is a shitty video with improper testing methods and is not a valid source? I gave you the hard data straight from the calculator.
-:::"''Also, Ivysaurs meteor isn’t very strong, it just for some reason launches very far down''"
-:::For some reason... perhaps because it is decently strong?
-:::"''you’re comparing it to weaker spikes.''"
-:::If you're calling Falcon dair weak, you have no idea what you're talking about.
-:::"''Compare them to ones with the same damage output (15%)''"
-:::How is this relevant? Moves that deal less damage can have higher BKB and KBG values that leads to them killing earlier.
-:::"''From the top of my head I can name Roy’s dair , ikes dair dededes dair, dks fair, wolfs dair, Mii gunners dair I think, maybe yoshis fair, and many more.''"
-:::Dedede, Ike, and Roy dair are among the strongest meteors in the game, it's no shame being weaker than them, and you're showing more of how uninformed you are by suggesting Wolf and Mii Gunner dair and Yoshi far are stronger (they're not).
-:::My patience has ran out here, make another reply in improper talk page format or that is otherwise just wasting everyone's time, and that will be it for you. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 17:52, September 10, 2021 (EDT)
-:::As a highly experienced Yoshi main, I can tell you that while Yoshi’s fair is pretty strong, there are other meteors that are far more powerful. Yoshi’s fair wouldn’t even make it in a Top 10 list. And given, despite this, it’s still significantly stronger than Marth’s dair (this being an objective truth), there’s no way Marth can come close to the big hitters as you’re trying to claim. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry Nation'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 18:43, September 10, 2021 (EDT)
-::::"''And given, despite this, it’s still significantly stronger than Marth’s dair (this being an objective truth)''"
-::::I just pointed out how this is false. Yoshi's fair meteor kills Mario at 62% at FD's height with good DI and no rage, 54% with max rage, Marth dair kills earlier with even no rage than Yoshi fair does with max rage. Yoshi fair being "significantly stronger" is not any "objective truth".
-::::"''there’s no way Marth can come close to the big hitters as you’re trying to claim.''"
-::::Uh, are you responding to MetaKnightX6 like your indent implies or me, because he is trying to argue that, and my posts just pointed out how claims of Marth's tipped aerials being "averagish" in power are bullshit. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:53, September 10, 2021 (EDT)
-:::::I was trying to reply to Meta, yeh. But whoopsie, gotta check the numbers a bit more carefully. I was also considering that Yoshi’s fair sourspot has a lot of KO viability itself, especially near the blast line, which is where you’d typically be using it. Marth’s dair might struggle to keep up in some situations, especially if soured. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry Nation'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 19:00, September 10, 2021 (EDT)
-::::::Yoshi sourspot fair is not killing earlier than a meteor offstage unless you're very close to the side blastzone (right off the ledge of FD those spikes were tested at, Yoshi's sourspot fair killed at 121% with no rage), and under the strictest measure of "power", Marth's dair is producing more knockback until very high percents (the pure knockback of Yoshi's sourspot fair doesn't catch up to Marth's dair meteor until 130ish%, far beyond the point of relevancy for offstage). But this and Marth's sourspots are irrelevant anyway, when the discussion is about the strength of Marth's tippers and how Marth's dair compares to other meteors. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 19:28, September 10, 2021 (EDT)
-==Question==
-When did Marth's normal attacks-tilts get canonical names? The only official attack names are his specials, well for everyone. Did some update occur orr? <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Chitoge63|Chitoge63]] ([[User talk:Chitoge63|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Chitoge63|contribs]]) 21:57, November 15, 2021 (EST)</small>
-:They are sourced from a Japanese wiki which sources them from (as far as we're concerned) an official guidebook. More [[Special:PermanentLink/1628877#Moveset_names|here]]. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 22:03, November 15, 2021 (EST)
-== Should Ignaize be listed as a notable player now? ==
-After his solid Genesis result (49th) should we list him as a notable player now or wait for another major result?[[User:ClemSSB|ClemSSB]] ([[User talk:ClemSSB|talk]]) 07:32, April 17, 2022 (EDT)
-:I would say probably wait longer he doesn't have that many placements at larger events yet. Remember it is not about notable players, it is about most historically significant players so we don't just add players out of a couple results. He can probably get on the [[User:Cookies and Creme/Historically Significant Player Watchlist|watchlist]] tho. [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]]  [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 07:41, April 17, 2022 (EDT)
-👍🏻[[User:ClemSSB|ClemSSB]] ([[User talk:ClemSSB|talk]]) 08:10, April 17, 2022 (EDT)
-== Attributes section says his "strengths outweigh his weaknesses" ==
-This does not make any sense. Marth is currently below average on the current tier list, has underwhelming results in tournament, and is described as having 'bottom ten range' representation on the wiki page. I've attempted to update the 'Attributes' section twice to reflect these facts, but both edits were undone by Fran with the rationale 'results≠strengths'. This explanation seems like an indirect conjecture at best. Does anyone else have thoughts on this, or can provide more insight into why this description is justified despite the evidence to the contrary? [[User:FunkyGrip2000|FunkyGrip2000]] ([[User talk:FunkyGrip2000|talk]]) 05:00, January 25, 2024 (EST)
+This discussion is being continued on my talk page. Also it isn’t blatantly wrong that Martha Aireals are a average check YouTuber AacroX’s ‘who has the strongest videos’. Also, Ivysaurs meteor isn’t very strong, it just for some reason launches very far down for one without launching into tumbling and it’s infamous or it’s ability to hit under the ledge. Also K rools fair is fairly weak, you’re comparing it to weaker spikes. Those 2 from the top of my head should deal 10 and 12%. 15%, although it sounds like a minor difference of 3% is a significant difference just in case you didn’t know. Compare them to ones with the same damage output (15%). From the top of my head I can name Roy’s dair , ikes dair dededes dair, dks fair, wolfs dair, Mii gunners dair I think, maybe yoshis fair, and many more.
+[[User:MetaKnightX6|MetaKnightX6]] ([[User talk:MetaKnightX6|talk]]) 17:46, September 10, 2021 (EDT)
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