Editing Talk:List of major tournaments

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Agreed. Besides, there are way more Major Melee tournaments than the ones currently listed so we need to add some. And this propose would probably make this article more organized. [[User:Dots|Dots]] [[User talk:Dots|The]] [[Special:Contributions/Dots|Asian]] [[File:NintenNESsprite.png|19px]] 20:45, 20 August 2012 (EDT)
Agreed. Besides, there are way more Major Melee tournaments than the ones currently listed so we need to add some. And this propose would probably make this article more organized. [[User:Dots|Dots]] [[User talk:Dots|The]] [[Special:Contributions/Dots|Asian]] [[File:NintenNESsprite.png|19px]] 20:45, 20 August 2012 (EDT)
==Melee Changes==
[http://smashboards.com/threads/melee-in-2013-year-in-review.344985/| If you look at the Melee year in review], you'll see there are lists of the 25 biggest tournaments of the year, and tournaments that had over 100 entrants. Personally, I think "National Tournaments" is such an outdated and flawed term, and using the two categories listed earlier would be much better instead. [[User:Nocturnal Dragon|Nocturnal Dragon]] ([[User talk:Nocturnal Dragon|talk]]) 14:26, 16 March 2014 (EDT)
:If you're suggesting that "national tournament" is a poor term to be using, then we might as well delete the page altogether and use categories such as "Tournaments of 100+ entrants" to group tournaments. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Breegull 18:50, 16 March 2014 (EDT)
Yeah, but you could just rename the page [[User:Nocturnal Dragon|Nocturnal Dragon]] ([[User talk:Nocturnal Dragon|talk]]) 19:13, 16 March 2014 (EDT)
== Source? ==
Can we get a reliable tournament that mentions all of these tournaments as nationals? Otherwise it's the the opinion of whomever edited the page.--[[User:Dinodomain|Dinodomain]] ([[User talk:Dinodomain|talk]]) 14:58, 28 January 2015 (EST)
:The rankings category on [[SmashBoards]] has essentially all of these tournaments listed as nationals, which is about as close to a reliable source as you're gonna get. Plus, just objectively looking at the talent pool and recent results is enough to identify the majority of these tournaments as majors. [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 16:32, 28 January 2015 (EST)
::So how many top pros in the field of a tournament does it take for it to become a national?--[[User:Dinodomain|Dinodomain]] ([[User talk:Dinodomain|talk]]) 15:40, 30 January 2015 (EST)
:::It's less about the quantity of players than it is the quality of players (although tournament series like EVO/Apex/MLG/The Big House contain plenty of both). [[Northeastern Smash Attack 2]], for example, had more than 200 players, but the talent pool itself was significantly lacking in comparison to other tournaments with comparable sizes, lacking real big hitters like Mango, Armada, PPMD, Hungrybox, Mew2King, Leffen, Axe, or Hax, who have managed to take the majority of top spots at the largest tournaments throughout 2014. Hope this helps a bit. [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 18:09, 30 January 2015 (EST)
== List of Long-running Tournament Series ==
While looking at pages to improve, I noted there's no hub to find the major tournament series currently active (or inactive series). We use a bottom page category box to list all the events on a tournament series, but there's no page to list them. Would this be a valuable page?
This page's goal would be to answer the simple question '''"What are the currently active long running tournament series?"'''. It's easy to think of Apex, them B.E.A.S.T., The Big House and EVO (of sorts), but that's it? The page would gather all tournament series pages and give a interesting view on the ''traditional'' Smash events contrasted by ''largest'' smash events. An example of what I have in mind:
{|class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
|-
!Rank!!Name!!N° Editions!!Most recent!!Next
|-
|'''1'''||[[Revival of Melee (tournament series)|Revival of Melee]]||7||[[Revival of Melee 7]]||TBA
|-
|'''2'''||[[Apex (tournament series)|Apex]]||6||[[Apex 2015]]||TBA
|-
|'''3'''||[[EVO]]||5||[[EVO 2015]]||TBA
|-
|'''4'''||[[B.E.A.S.T (tournament series)|B.E.A.S.T]]||5||[[B.E.A.S.T 5]]||Early 2016
|-
|'''5'''||[[The Big House (tournament series)|The Big House]]||5||[[The Big House 4]]||[[The Big House 5]]
|}
--[[User:PFFP|PFFP]] ([[User talk:PFFP|talk]]) 23:06, 13 August 2015 (EDT)
:PS: if the page is rejected, I still support we at least create a new category, "Tournament Series" to tag those pages accordingly. [[User:PFFP|PFFP]] ([[User talk:PFFP|talk]]) 09:12, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:If you are suggesting a ''List of active tournament series'' page, then I'm in [[User:Serpent_King|<span style="color:#008833; text-shadow:-1px -1px #00bb77;">'''Serpent King'''</span>]] [[User talk:Serpent_King|(<span style="color: blue;">talk</span>)]] 09:22, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::Something like that. But what would be the criteria to determine a "active series"? Any series with a event confirmed for the current year and at least two past events? [[User:PFFP|PFFP]] ([[User talk:PFFP|talk]]) 09:53, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::Perhaps "List of tournament series" with the restriction of regional-size events and up? [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 11:32, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Gonna create the page [[List of Tournament Series]] and we discuss the structure there. About active series, I think any tournament series with a event on the current year and at least one on the previous year can be considered active. We could make a "active series" and "retired or in hiatus" sections to differentiate. The Revival of Melee for example can be considered on hiatus, since there was no event scheduled to 2015, but [https://twitter.com/AlukardNY/status/632054821973966848 the organizer has plans for the future]. [[User:PFFP|PFFP]] ([[User talk:PFFP|talk]]) 15:26, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::Two suggestions I'd like to make: #1, the desired title should be "List of tournament series"; it's not a proper noun. #2, you may wish to make a draft in your userspace prior to mainspacing it so other users can suggest potential changes. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 15:36, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::[http://www.ssbwiki.com/User:PFFP| Done], now please help me with wiki text options. I have some ideas, but I suck at making tables and templates (as you can see). [[User:PFFP|PFFP]] ([[User talk:PFFP|talk]]) 18:10, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
== Is Apex a Smash 4 National or not? ==
On the subject of [[Apex 2016]] being added or not on the List of Nationals Tournaments, I'd like to ask the opinion of the community on this: ''any'' tournament with 100+ entrants should ''really'' be considered a '''National Tournament'''?
This seems pretty easy to say when it comes to games with small numbers, like ''Brawl'' and ''Smash 64''. Any event with 100+ entrants for those games can be considered a National for sure. But what about ''Melee'' and ''Smash 4''?
Here on the SSBWiki, on [[National_tournament|the page that explains what's the definition of a National Tournament]] it says that "the baseline for a tournament to be classified as such is a minimum of 100 entrants". Which makes the Smash 4 portion of Apex 2016, by definition, a National Tournament, since there's already 171 entrants. Melee will likely follow with at least 100+ as we get closer to the pre-reg deadline, since a lot of players only pre-reg on the last moment.
But still, even if Apex 2016 got to 100+ for Melee and 200+ for Smash 4, it would still be considered a ''National'' for those games?[[User:PFFP|PFFP]] ([[User talk:PFFP|talk]]) 21:01, 19 May 2016 (EDT)
:I personally think that Apex gets national status unconditionally, but that's just me <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 21:32, 19 May 2016 (EDT)
::Given how few noteworthy players are attending the event, and the Smash community's general lack of interest and participation, I don't think it should qualify (it's pretty clear that the overwhelming majority of the community doesn't really care about the event). And with the rapid growth of tournaments, it's difficult to justify any tournament with 100+ entrants as being a national, because they're so many of them that it dilutes the term's meaning (and many of them don't even have much top-level talent anyways). National tournaments should continue to be evaluated on a subjective basis. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 22:00, 19 May 2016 (EDT)
:::I believe that in the matter of Apex 2016, it's best to wait for the final registration numbers and see the list of players attending. IMO Apex is once again a ''regional''. Numbers are pretty low and with less than a month to the event very few noteworthy players have registered. That can change on the next few weeks leading to the event, but the way I see it, most are saving it up for [[CEO 2016]]. Armada and Leffen are both going to DreamHack Summer and I believe some other high level Melee players might follow.[[User:PFFP|PFFP]] ([[User talk:PFFP|talk]]) 23:18, 19 May 2016 (EDT)
== Nationals ==
How does what a random user post on SmashBoards makes something a national or not? Those that I removed were super-regionals and comparable to [[2GGT: Fresh Saga]]. Also, Shots Fired 2 only had 164 entrants, so I don't know if the number of top level players justifies it's smaller size. [[Enthusiast Gaming Live Expo]] doesn't even have a page for SmashBoards. So how are the tournaments I removed nationals and not super-regionals? -- [[User:Ethan7|<span style="color:#000f55;font-family:Cursive;font-style:italic">Ethan</span>]][[file:Ethan7sig.png|20px|link=User:Ethan7]]<small>''([[User talk:Ethan7|<span style="color:Blue">Discussion</span>]])''</small> 11:43, 10 August 2016 (EDT)
:I'm not going by "random user posts", I'm going by what's posted in the Rankings section of SmashBoards (and yes, SF2 and EGLX both have Ranking pages and both were labeled as nationals, with SF2 being considered an international. There is a mod team that looks over particular tournaments as well, so some "nationals" get booted down to regionals (such as every KTAR other than the most recent one and Glitch). I also think the strength of a tournament should be a bigger factor than the size. To quote myself from over a year ago:
:"''[[Northeastern Smash Attack 2]], for example, had more than 200 players, but the talent pool itself was significantly lacking in comparison to other tournaments with comparable sizes, lacking real big hitters like Mango, Armada, PPMD, Hungrybox, Mew2King, Leffen, Axe, or Hax, who have managed to take the majority of top spots at the largest tournaments throughout 2014.''".
:Shots Fired 2 was clearly one of the most stacked tournaments of the year. [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 12:38, 10 August 2016 (EDT)
:: I guess you are talking about this:[http://smashboards.com/rankings/national.4/category]
::That seems pretty official, but I can't find Clutch City Clash. Maybe they haven't added it yet. Shots Fired 2 was stacked in regards to the number of top level players, but not entrants. -- [[User:Ethan7|<span style="color:#000f55;font-family:Cursive;font-style:italic">Ethan</span>]][[file:Ethan7sig.png|20px|link=User:Ethan7]]<small>''([[User talk:Ethan7|<span style="color:Blue">Discussion</span>]])''</small> 13:19, 10 August 2016 (EDT)
== Smash the Record 2016 ==
Despite all of the top talent attending both games (especially Smash 4), I'm skeptical about whether or not StR should be considered a national. The first reason being that it's a tournament for charity, thus it's often not considered in many ranking systems, for example SmashBoards Rankings and PracticalTAS's Tennis Rankings. The second reason is that the stage list includes many stages unanimously considered banned in current tournament standards (ex. Great Bay, Jungle Japes in Melee and Norfair in Smash 4), and the stage selection process consists of a random selection, rather than stage striking and counterpicking (which is also a tournament standard). [[User:Zakken|Zakken]] ([[User talk:Zakken|talk]]) 18:54, 12 October 2016 (EDT)
== ICARUS V and Regen 2019 ==
I actually don't particularly mind if ICARUS V stays on the page. The country representation in the Top 32 is pretty diverse and the competition there seemed to be fairly high as well (also featuring Glutonny/Meru/Light/quik/TheFlow, who are five of the best players in Europe).
As for Regen 2019, however, I believe it should be removed from the page. Not only was the competition somewhere lacking (relatively speaking, that is) compared to ICARUS V on the same weekend, but it also had over 80% of its Top 32 players be from the UK (the country the tournament was held in), so not too many players from out of the country attended it either. [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 10:53, June 15, 2019 (EDT)
:I never saw Regen 2019 as a national tbh. It's definitely a major for the UK, however as you said before there isn't much other presence in other countries. Also, the player count was on the lower side compared to other European nationals such as Tech Republic IV, and although it has more entrants than ICARUS V, once again the majority of players are from England. I feel like Jamal had already said most of what I want to say, so I'll leave it at that. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 21:03, June 18, 2019 (EDT)
::Even for an outsider to competitive Smash, Regen 2019 doesn't seem to be a national; {{rollover|a national in Smash does not have the same meaning as the word "national" itself|this is directed at the user who keeps adding it back to the page, assuming they end up reading this talk page|y}}, and with a vast majority of UK players in a UK tournament, it definitely seems more like a regional than a national. Worth noting is that Regen's page itself calls it a super regional, and it's even categorized as such. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 13:11, July 15, 2019 (EDT)
== Adding missing nationals ==
I'm a bit confused right now, as individual tournament pages and Category:National tournaments state that there are more national tournaments than this page says. I added a few to the ''Melee'' section, and they were removed, so I'm not exactly sure what information is correct anymore. If someone could enlighten me, that would be great. [[User:KungFuLakitu|KungFuLakitu]], [[User talk:KungFuLakitu|Spiny Overlord]] 11:59, July 3, 2019 (EDT)
:I swear someone has answered this, but for those who are wondering, a tournament can be considered a national for one game but not for the other; this is the case for the tournaments KFL added. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 11:32, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
== Is The mang0 2019 a Melee national? ==
Why The Mang0 is in the ultimate list but not in the Melee list? [[User:SsbmRoy|SsbmRoy]] ([[User talk:SsbmRoy|talk]]) 11:04, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
:For ''Ultimate'', there were many top players in attendance from not just the United States, but Japan and Australia as well. There's more diversity and hard players compared to the ''Melee'' tournament, which is mostly just SoCal players. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 11:26, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
But Melee have more entrants,and some ranked players from Mexico,Canada and Australia [[User:SsbmRoy|SsbmRoy]] ([[User talk:SsbmRoy|talk]]) 12:14, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
:That doesn't matter, there are more top PGR players from across the country and from Japan (Australia is an actual meh) in ''Ultimate'' than in ''Melee'', which the majority of those in top 32 are from SoCal. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 12:40, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
:Actually on second thought, The Mang0 could probably be listed as a national. I don't know, if anyone has any input it should be added as one. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 12:48, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
:: I'd consider the Mang0 to be a national. Even if you don't include the players who were sandbagging, it still had a lot of top player attendance,many from out of region. It was just as if not more stacked than Battle of BC 3 and Full Bloom 5, both of which we consider national tournaments. [[User:Jaydyn|Jaydyn]] ([[User talk:Jaydyn|talk]]) 13:58, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
:::I disagree. There were at least three Top 10 players in attendance (according to the Summer 2019 rankings) at both Full Bloom 5 (Zain/S2J/iBDW) and Battle of BC 3 (Axe/Zain/S2J), and both tournaments had at least one member of the current Top 7 for Melee (Zain for Full Bloom and Axe/Zain for Battle of BC). The Mango only had one player from the Top 10 that was trying (S2J) and none of the Top 7 seriously competing. [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 17:18, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
Yes,The Mang0 is a national [[User:Bersapus|Bersapus]] ([[User talk:Bersapus|talk]]) 15:18, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
But the Mang0 have various top players like
S2J (9th)
SFAT (11th)
Swedish (13th)
Moky (14th)
PewPewU (16th)
Ginger (18th)
KJH (21th)
Lucky (23th)
ARMY (24th)
WestballZ,MedZ,ChuDat (26,27 and 28th)
Spud (33th)
FatGoku (36th)
HugS (50th)
Zain (Fox)*
And some others high level players.
So,The Mang0 is a national... [[User:SsbmRoy|SsbmRoy]] ([[User talk:SsbmRoy|talk]]) 18:39, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
:I disagree with you definitively calling it a national. None of those players (besides Zain, who was sandbagging with Fox) have shown themselves capable of winning a major with at least 2 of the Top 7 in attendance. It has several Top 50 players in attendance, true, but it's missing the actual major winners. I very much consider it a stacked regional. [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 19:15, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
The Mang0 is a national bro,a tournament with almost 20 top 50 players isn't a regional [[User:Bersapus|Bersapus]] ([[User talk:Bersapus|talk]]) 20:12, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
:See my previous post. It has a large field, but is entirely lacking in players who have actually won majors... so I'm going to stick to my stance that it was a stacked regional. Also, this isn't a valid counterargument, since by this logic, every player ranked from 31st-50th could attend a tournament and it would be a "national".  [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 20:17, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
and in ultimate only kameme wins big tournaments,so why is this considered national and in melee no?
this dont make sense [[User:Bersapus|Bersapus]] ([[User talk:Bersapus|talk]]) 20:44, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
:I don't agree with Ultimate being listed either, actually, especially considering that it's a C-Tier that had only 2 players in the Top 30 present. [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 20:58, August 15, 2019 (EDT)
Yes,this is a national,look at the number of top players,3 top 10 players [Zain,iBDW & S2J] and more top 50 players than Full Bloom & BoBC 3. [[User:Nakka|Nakka]] ([[User talk:Nakka|talk]]) 11:14, August 16, 2019 (EDT)
I'm just going to pop in and question some of these accounts. It's entirely suspicious that two other accounts have been created solely for this conversation, both with similar grammar and stylistic edits with SsbmRoy. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 13:14, August 16, 2019 (EDT)
:Even if that's not the case, @Nakka as long as there has been no consensus reached, the edit should not be added, even if there's a "majority". Looking at PMJ's statements, I do kinda agree with him now, since that was how I thought about the Mang0 beforehand. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 13:18, August 16, 2019 (EDT)
::In addition to what Cookies said, once again I'll point out that only S2J was competing seriously out of the Top 10 (Zain was playing Fox and iBDW was playing Marth). [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 13:28, August 16, 2019 (EDT)
:I'm just created this account because i'm confused with national tournaments,in the national tournaments page says: "These are tournaments that holds large amounts of people from various regions of the world"
& The Mang0 has some known players from various regions,more than BoBC3 & Full Bloom 5 (and sorry if i have a bad english,i'm spanish lol) [[User:Nakka|Nakka]] ([[User talk:Nakka|talk]]) 14:07, August 16, 2019 (EDT)
::Still, that doesn't mean it's a national. The majority of people were sandbagging. Don't you think a tournament full of people playing weak characters should not be considered a national? Don't forget, nationals are where players shows the skills of the Melee community, playing seriously without sandbagging. That's what BoBC 3 and Full Bloom 4 is different - people were serious and trying to win. No one was at the Mang0. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 14:27, August 16, 2019 (EDT)
:::Oh,ok but The Mang0 is a regional for ultimate too,right? Only one top player attend [[User:Nakka|Nakka]] ([[User talk:Nakka|talk]]) 15:03, August 16, 2019 (EDT)
::::I do think Ultimate at The Mang0 was a regional as well, yeah. I'm okay with removing it, personally. [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 15:16, August 16, 2019 (EDT)
== Fête ==
Do you think Fetê is a national?
A large amount of people from different regions entered this tournament
(More than 300 entrants)
 
[[User:Nakka|Nakka]] ([[User talk:Nakka|talk]]) 19:12, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
:Can you link to the tournament? [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:34, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
:: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Tournament:Fête [[User:Nakka|Nakka]] ([[User talk:Nakka|talk]]) 19:52, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
:::There aren't any top 10 players at the tournament, plus there are only a very few ranked players there. So no, I don't believe it's a national. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:59, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
==Return to Yoshi's Island==
Is it really a national tournament? It's a very low B-Tier, and there were only 6 PGR entrants, with only 2 of them being in the Top 20. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 10:27, November 5, 2019 (EST)
:I agree that it's not a national. Not enough top player attendance to call it anything more than a regional. [[User:Jaydyn|Jaydyn]] ([[User talk:Jaydyn|talk]]) 17:53, November 5, 2019 (EST)
::The 2 players in the Top 20 are also in the Top 10, with one of those players being in the Top 5. I think it's a little iffy but passable, especially given that it qualified as a B-Tier via PGR players in attendance rather than entrant numbers. [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 23:15, November 5, 2019 (EST)
==Smash 64 - Big House 9 and Snosa 5==
Are these 2 tournaments really nationals? I'd say the other tournaments here all have the requirement of having top 10 in the world players in attendence.. The [[2018 64 League Rankings]] is not really a good indicator of who is top 10 in the world because of it's requirements to get ranked. At least 6 Japanese players (kysk, wario, kurabba, fukurou, wangera, sekirei) and 4 Peruvian players (Gohan, Gerson, Stradon, Tavomono) who are better than the player ranked 5th ({{Sm|KeroKeroppi}} are not ranked.
I know Isai attended {{Trn|Snosa 5}} and is ranked high in the 2018 ranking, but using Mario and Samus he did not really try to win there, kind of falls in the same category as {{Trn|The Mango}}. Other than that no top 10 player.
For {{Trn|The Big House 9}} {{Sm|Prince}} attended who is top 10 in the 2018 ranking, but not top 10 in the world. [[User:Patzui|Patzui]] ([[User talk:Patzui|talk]]) 10:40, February 23, 2020 (EST)
:Brody was at both of those tournaments and had a very solid 2019, even though he wasn't ranked Top 10 on the 2018 rankings. He placed 2nd at GENESIS 6 and Snosa IV, 4th at Smash 'N' Splash 5, and 7th at Super Smash Con 2019, for example. [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 01:31, March 13, 2020 (EDT)
== Major or national ==
After a discussion on Discord it came to light that the term "national" is getting increasingly inadequate for several reasons:
*Global PR curators such as PGStats and OrionStats very rarely, if ever, use the term, preferring the term "major".
*The meaning of national is somewhat confusing as it has been historically been applied mostly to US and Japanese tournaments. Indeed, to qualify as "nationals" under our current definition, tournaments hosted in most countries, such as France, would be required to have ''international'' attendance, therefore conflicting with the natural definition of the world. In the past this has confused several occasional editors, for example [https://twitter.com/GPtheTO/status/975496110641999873 G-P regarding Albion 2].
*When national is currently used as a definition by entities outside of the wiki, it is often taken to mean "superregional tournament", either within or outside the United States, therefore conflicting with the older definition that has it synonymous with "major".
The proposal is to move the page to "List of major tournaments" and trim the list accordingly. It has been suggested on Discord that we could also highlight supermajors in some way such as bolding or use colored cells. --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 13:33, May 12, 2022 (EDT)
:'''Support.''' I agree the term has fallen in favor of the term "major," and the categorization can get confusing. --[[User:Meester Tweester|Meester Tweester]] ([[User talk:Meester Tweester|talk]]) 15:45, May 12, 2022 (EDT)
::'''Full support''' in regards to both moving the page and trimming the list down accordingly, for reasons [https://www.ssbwiki.com/Forum:Splitting_the_tournament_categories that both myself and OT have given here]. [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 16:01, May 12, 2022 (EDT)
:'''Support''' as noted in my proposal. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 16:12, May 12, 2022 (EDT)
:'''Support'''. I don't think "national" corresponds one for one to either "major" or "superregional", but the ambiguity around it makes it a poor term to use regardless. Rename the page and category to major, and trim out the "nationals" that are clearly not majors. [[User:Stuart98|Stuart98]] ([[User talk:Stuart98|talk]]) 19:56, May 12, 2022 (EDT)
:'''Support''', what I said in the category splitting proposal applies here. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 13:24, May 17, 2022 (EDT)
:'''Support''', I think the term is a bit ambiguous and the page should be changed to majors and supermajors only.--[[User:Hydreigonfan01|Hydreigonfan01]] ([[User talk:Hydreigonfan01|talk]]) 18:30, May 21, 2022 (EDT)
:'''Full support''' as well, same thing applies to the category splitting proposal. National has been a confusing term and will only cause more confusion inside the Smash community if we continue to use this term. [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]]  [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 05:37, June 12, 2022 (EDT)
== Removal of Upcoming Events ==
I come to this page for the purpose of finding upcoming events with high projected attendance to watch, and removing upcoming events (done 7/19) makes the page useless for that purpose. My 2 cents~ <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:24.30.93.245|24.30.93.245]] ([[User talk:24.30.93.245|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/24.30.93.245|contribs]]) 13:24, July 23, 2022 (EDT)</small>
:Based on Cookies and Creme's edit summary, it isn't possible to know if a tournament is a major or not until it happens/concludes. Adding tournaments on the assumption that it will be a major will just lead to extra edits to remove them when they turn out to not be majors. We do have a category for upcoming events ([[:Category:Upcoming events]]) if that helps. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 13:31, July 23, 2022 (EDT)
:The purpose of the page is to list what tournaments on the wiki are considered majors and supermajors. It is not supposed to be like a TV guide as to what tournaments you should watch, which if I were to be honest, you should know through literally any other site that has a ''Smash'' community. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 15:18, July 23, 2022 (EDT)
:The "majorness" of a tournament can be forecast in advance based on prize pool, previous tournament history (ex: CEO, Momocon, Super Smash Con) etc. If we want to keep it simple, include only Gold / Platinum SWT tournaments. Don't remove useful functionality / features in the name of nomenclature. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:24.30.93.245|24.30.93.245]] ([[User talk:24.30.93.245|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/24.30.93.245|contribs]]) 15:56, July 23, 2022 (EDT)</small>
::"If we want to keep it simple, include only Gold / Platinum SWT tournaments.".
::There are many Gold/Platinum events that are not majors (such as Ultra Hard Tournament, ESPECIALLY in Melee's case); likewise, there are many non-Gold/Platinum events that are majors (most notably GENESIS 8). This page is not intended to be used as a tournament calendar; we have similar rules set in place for the "List of largest Smash tournaments" page as well. [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 16:12, July 23, 2022 (EDT)
::"The "majorness" of a tournament can be forecast in advance based on previous tournament history (ex: CEO, Momocon, Super Smash Con)"
:::And yet, CEO Dreamland 2020 was at best a super regional for most events; Super Smash Con: Fall Fest was not a major/supermajor for either ''Melee''/''Ultimate'' respectively; and the last 2 GENESIS tournaments for 64 didn't even reach super regional status; not to mention [all the tournaments that were cancelled or postponed due to the pandemic, [https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_major_tournaments?action=history&offset=20201122071340%7C1501532& forcing us to remove each tournament from the list one by one]. While I understand there is merit using precedence, it's also not a 100% guarantee, especially when we don't know what the future holds.
::"If we want to keep it simple, include only Gold / Platinum SWT tournaments"
:::Yeah, {{Trn|Virtuocity Smash Open 2022}}, {{Trn|Ultra Hard}}, and {{Trn|Ultimate Tropical Arena}} are certainly majors, and I for sure am excited for {{Trn|Uprising 2022}}, the first ever ''Melee'' major in Asia since 2005. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 16:15, July 23, 2022 (EDT)
:My point is we can enforce standards for the inclusion of upcoming events or gut that functionality which seems like a Bad Thing™ from a user experience / SEO perspective for anyone who has come to expect that functionality from this page. Maybe a separate page for this would make sense -- but the Upcoming Events category page doesn't currently serve that purpose. Being the SSB Wiki site with no page for upcoming events seems like a kind of glaring feature limitation. Just trying to propose an alternative solution that doesn't involve the permanent removal of useful information. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:24.30.93.245|24.30.93.245]] ([[User talk:24.30.93.245|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/24.30.93.245|contribs]]) 16:36, July 23, 2022 (EDT)</small>
::There is no useful "functionality" in using this page to speculate what upcoming tournaments will be majors ([[SmashWiki is not speculative]]), and the wiki's purpose is to document '''what has already happened''', end of. If you want a "calendar", there are better places explicitly made for that purpose as you were already told, such as this [https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/wiki/events reddit page] and this [https://twitter.com/smashcalendar Twitter account], that also has its own website (can't link it here as its triggering the spam filter, but the account links it in its bio). Also start signing your comments if you're going to keep posting on talk pages. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 17:01, July 23, 2022 (EDT)
::A list of upcoming events is "functionality". You can agree to disagree with me on whether this functionality is "useful".
Using established standards (tournament history, prize pools) to define which tournaments should be listed on such a page is not "speculative" (and has nothing to do with the help article you linked which talks about rumors and unreleased content).
CEO Dreamland 2020 and SSC: Fall Fest were side events; CEO Dreamland 2020 was the last major Smash event prior to pandemic; 64 is the oldest / most dead form of SSB. Y'all are reaching, seriously.
I'm out, GLHF~ <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:24.30.93.245|24.30.93.245]] ([[User talk:24.30.93.245|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/24.30.93.245|contribs]]) 17:25, July 23, 2022 (EDT)</small>
:''Using established standards (tournament history, prize pools) to define which tournaments should be listed on such a page is not "speculative" (and has nothing to do with the help article you linked which talks about rumors and unreleased content).''"
:You were already given more than enough examples on how precedence means shit, tournaments underperform what people expected all the time, and we can't know the prize pool either in most cases until we get the actual attendance numbers... which we can't know until the tournament actually happens. And you read SW:NOT wrong if you're thinking if it's just about rumors and unreleased content, SmashWiki not speculating applies to all of its content. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:05, July 23, 2022 (EDT)
== Stopping with the Orionrank definition madness ==
I don't know who needs to hear this but I'm getting sick of some events (particularly EU but also other events) with several top 30 players in attendance being removed (mainly in the Ult section) because someone put a guideline in place saying that it should be based off the Barnard's loop TTS
The Orionrank "majors" and "supermajors" have their own standalone definition of these terms based off an algorithm, and due to it being an algorithm there are clear anomalies and letting one person choose what is a major/supermajor based on an algorithm differs from the actual definition of majors and supermajors which are decided by a big number of people's standards
In short, I think we should be adding some of these anomalies to a certain and sensible degree <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Bigmeatthing|Bigmeatthing]] ([[User talk:Bigmeatthing|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bigmeatthing|contribs]]) 13:52, October 2, 2022 (EDT)</small>
:The wiki does not strictly follow the OrionStats TTS. OrionStats has a 2400 point threshold for majors, while the wiki generally has a 3000 point threshold. This is not strictly followed however; OrionStats has Riptide at a major with more than 3k points, yet the wiki does not recognize it as a major (because regardless of what the TTS says, it obviously wasn't). [[User:Stuart98|Stuart98]] ([[User talk:Stuart98|talk]]) 14:50, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
== Split ==
I think it's fairly obvious this page should be split into individual articles for each game, but I'll open a formal discussion for it here. This article has gotten very large (over 50,000 bytes currently), and with so many tournaments and subsections on here, it has gotten difficult to navigate, there has been several times I lost my way on this page when trying to find something specific. Not to mention that the repeated titling of the subsections leads to complications with trying to link to a specific year for a specific game from other articles (you can still do it, but a lot of wiki editors probably don't know how to do so). Are there any actual objections to this? <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 06:48, June 18, 2023 (EDT)
:'''Support'''. This article could become an explination for what qualifies as a major or supermajor, and then list off subarticles for lists for individual games. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Jordan P.|Jordan P.]] ([[User talk:Jordan P.|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jordan P.|contribs]]) 17:03, June 18, 2023 (EDT)</small>
:'''Support''', as in my opinion it would make life easier. To Jordan, we already have a brief explanation for that [[Tournament#Locations and sizes|here]], and I feel like adding anything else on this page would just be redundant or better cleared up on the linked page; it's best for this page to become something like a disambig. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 18:48, June 18, 2023 (EDT)
:'''Support''', this page is hard to navigate and too long. I agree with making it a disambig.--[[User:Hydreigonfan01|Hydreigonfan01]] ([[User talk:Hydreigonfan01|talk]]) 22:42, June 19, 2023 (EDT)

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