Editing Talk:Fox (SSB4)

::::::It baffles me that you think Fox is bad just because he lost the ability to gay out opponents with lasers or gimp them at 20% with shine like he could in previous games. This isn't Melee, and if you try to play him the way you do in that game, of course he's going to suck. You use lasers to force approaches (read again: not bad approaches, just force approaches) and you use shine to reflect (has no lag if you reflect something) or use it to stall and escape juggles. Just because you're trying to play Melee with Fox doesn't mean he's bad though, you're essentially ignoring the other things he got. Look at Side-B, the move has like 10 frames of landing lag if you use it in the air, it no longer puts you helpless which lets you recover or attack out of it, and the hitbox is much stronger in this game as it doesn't trade with things like Peach or Ness N-airs anymore like it did in previous games, they just clash with each other. It's a viable movement, escape and attack option now, and it can even follow up into a U-air or B-air for the KO at high percents. The other buffs he got were in regards to the engine itself, as pivots and the faster physics let him move much more freely than he could in Brawl. If you're not going to believe top players, believe the tournament results we've seen.

::::::I would be happy to settle this in a money match at Apex 2015 next week. My Fox vs whatever character you play in Sm4sh. You are going, right? You're not just saying things in this wiki without having any WiiU tournament experience... right? I'll see you there, my tag is Cozy.

I respect the fact that you brought up frame data. However you did not tell me why those numbers mean anything with respect to neutral game. In fact do you even understand how high level neutral game works? Just because you have positive numbers doesn't necessarily mean there are viable spacings to use them. My claim is that Fox is bad because everything he does is a commitment. He doesn't have spacings where he can keep people in his threat zone and simultaneously stay out of other people's threat zones. Fox was good in Melee because he had the movement to accomplish exactly that: dash dancing. He doesn't have that anymore. Pivoting into a standing position has been in every Smash game. It's pretty much only useful in 64 and Melee because those games feature long dash dancing. IIRC 64 doesn't even have full runs so you can pivot into a stand whenever you want. But in Brawl and Smash 4, initial dash animations are incredibly short. You can't really use empty pivots to significantly change your spacing and move yourself away from someone else's threat. The "solution" people came up with to rectify this issue is to use Foxtrotting to more significantly change your spacing (as if it were a Melee dash dance), but Foxtrotting is an even bigger commitment since unlike Melee you can't shield in your initial dash and have to endure a skid animation before you can go into a stand again. As such there is 1 spacing that does invalidate all of Fox's options: standing right outside his initial dash length. If he tries to move, he will get hit.