Editing Talk:Fighter ability

What If...?
We made Fighter Gimmick and Fighter Ability two different articles. Fighter Gimmick would be about Wonderwing and Cloud’s limit gauge and Fighter Gimmick stayed the same.

==Deletion discussion==
I'm seeing a fair amount of inconsistency and disagreement on this page as to what mechanics are "passive". For example:
* Jigglypuff being launched on shield break is not anything special other than a very high shield break leap attribute, so is it really passive?
* Peach has to do an input to get her float, so how is that passive?
* Olimar has to do a move to get his followers, so isn't that no longer passive compared to Popo or Rosalina?
* Cloud's and Joker's meters are mostly passive but can also be actively charged, so should that count?
* Ink comes from specific Inkling attacks, it boosts all sources of damage, and it goes away no matter what it lands on - so which part of it is passive to the Inkling?
* Is K. Rool's belly armour really passive if it has to be specifically enabled during certain animations?
The list goes on. In short, I think it's too hard to establish the definition of a "passive ability" in a correct/useful way that the average player will understand, and this is why I suggest the page be deleted. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Cloronic 06:45, May 3, 2019 (EDT)
:I feel like we shouldn't delete it just yet, however we instead try to define the word more clearly. If we hae a more clear definition then we will be able to deterimine the difference from a passive, and just something unique in a charecters moveset. Also i think joker and clouds are still passives in the sense that while you can effect the meter, you don't have to in order to use it. <span style="background:#ea244a;border:outset #906 5px">'''[[User:Xtra3678|Xtra]][[File:Xtra_headpng.png|20px]][[User talk:Xtra3678|<span style="color:Lime">Talk</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Xtra3678|<span style="color: Gold">Edits</span>]]'''</span> 07:22, May 3, 2019 (EDT)
::Maybe it should be called '''Unique mechanic''' or '''Fighter ability''' and so on. Anyway, in my opinion what they have in common is that not general, not about passivity or not.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 08:29, May 3, 2019 (EDT)
::::I wouldn’t split the page either, as then there would be disagreements on what fits in what category. I think a better proposition would be to rename this page to “special character mechanics”, as there are some mechanics that bear no resemblance to anything else another character has (such as Ryu and Ken’s inputs), but aren’t truly passive.  [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 12:05, May 3, 2019 (EDT)

== Should we count Dr. Mario’s stat modifiers as a fighter ability ==

After renaming this page, I think we can come to a pretty good conclusion on what qualifies on this list: something that would not really be able to be replicated on another character if you just changed some moves. These abilities have to be coded separately from the moves (such as type effectiveness, or tough guy) or are multiple non-special moves in place of a proper one. At this point, there seems to be only one that has been argued to not count: Dr. Mario’s stat modifiers. Do those count? They could technically be replicated on him without the external modifiers, but the fact that Doc has an extra thing coded on him makes me believe it should count. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 20:29, May 30, 2019 (EDT)
*As the user who made the original edit, '''no'''. It ''is'' very unusual that Dr Mario's stats are multiplied in real time (either directly or through hard-coded equipment) rather than being baked into his move data as with most other clones. However, unless this has a special effect on custom equipment or spirits, the fact that it ''could'' be replicated by just precalculating the numbers leads me to believe that it doesn't quite count. [[User:B2jammer|b2jammer]] ([[User talk:B2jammer|talk]]) 16:41, June 1, 2019 (EDT)

==Name change==

Someone on the main page proposed a move, and while I agree "fighter ability" probably isn't the best name, I'm not keen on "fighter gimmick" either. Is there a better name we could come up with? ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 00:45, November 16, 2019 (EST)
:That was me, and that’s because I universally see these sort of things referred to as "Gimmicks". That’s also a pretty bad name, but since they don’t have an official name, the next best thinn would be to use the most common fan name. [[Special:Contributions/209.198.210.220|209.198.210.220]] 00:48, November 16, 2019 (EST)
::"Gimmick" is used fairly commonly in the fan community, but not as a professional term, I think; it implies something less integral and more aesthetic, like how Incineroar has the gimmick of taunting after every move it makes. The term used most commonly among professionals is "unique mechanic", I think? I'd like to hear some more input on this. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 01:03, November 16, 2019 (EST)
::"Unique mechanic" is also reasonable. If it’s what most professionals refer to these things as, then that works. "Gimmick" and "Unique mechanic" also get the point across better than "Fighter ability", though after hearing "unique mechanic" I must agree that it gets the point across slightly more efficiently than "gimmick". [[Special:Contributions/209.198.210.220|209.198.210.220]] 01:24, November 16, 2019 (EST)
::I think passive ability is also a good name that is often used in other fighting game communities. Either this or unique mechanic is fine by me, gimmick is too colloquial and imprecise, not to mention it is often used for things that aren't a passive (i.e. "nair is Ike's gimmick). [[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 14:57, November 16, 2019 (EST)
:::"Passive" was passed up, though, since a lot of these mechanics aren't passive and require input from the player to activate (see above). "Unique mechanic" seems to be a good compromise, though. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 15:07, November 16, 2019 (EST)
::::Naming it a "unique mechanic" can be misleading, since a mechanic may be shared with a clone or a different fighter entirely, meaning that it's no longer unique. For instance, Link's passive shield is shared by his clones, Young Link and Toon Link, as well as the Hero; Ryu's 1-on-1 facing and input special moves are shared with his clone, Ken, as well as Terry. [[File:NokiiSig.png|link=User_talk:Nokii]] '''[[User:Nokii|<span style="color:#89f">Nokii</span>]]''' —  16:16, November 16, 2019 (EST)
:::::That's true, but in this case "unique" doesn't necessarily mean "one-of-a-kind"; it's mostly to oppose with a "''universal'' mechanic", like spot-dodging. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 16:27, November 16, 2019 (EST)

I added a separate table listing mechanics that are shared with multiple non-clone characters. Does that let the name "unique mechanic" work a little better now? [[Special:Contributions/184.181.98.125|184.181.98.125]] 00:40, December 2, 2019 (EST)

I think "secondary mechanic" would work best. The terms "unique" and "passive" each fall apart for a good chunk of them (the former being much more obvious with the newly separated page layout), and "gimmick" was already dismissed as imprecise and informal. However, all of these mechanics add a small, if often still important layer of complexity to the base fighter template, so I feel the term "secondary" is a good compromise. [[User:B2jammer|b2jammer]] ([[User talk:B2jammer|talk]]) 00:58, December 4, 2019 (EST)
:I'm into "secondary mechanic" with the new split too. That works better than "''unique'' mechanic" and clears up any confusion. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 03:04, December 4, 2019 (EST)

This is part of why I never liked the idea of this page in the first place: there are no good names for it. They're not all "abilities" since some are "passive" (and vice versa), they're not all "unique" because some are shared, "secondary" implies that "primary" exists (what would that be?), and nobody seems to like the informality of "gimmick". [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Multifaceted 06:57, December 4, 2019 (EST)
::You bring up a good point on what a "primary mechanic" would look like - I just assumed that meant a part of the base moveset all characters shared (standard attacks, dodges, the shield bubble, four special moves since ''Melee''...), but I could see that being a bit confusing. That said, the only other names I could think of are "extra" or "additional mechanic", for the same reason as "secondary". [[User:B2jammer|b2jammer]] ([[User talk:B2jammer|talk]]) 10:51, December 4, 2019 (EST)
:::Even if a lot of name choices are mediocre, there are so many characters (especially new ones) with additional mechanics that it's helpful to document them on one page. Everything on this page fits into the definition of a "mechanic” (plus that's what everybody is agreeing on), so that probably should be part of the name. maybe "Character-specific mechanic"? It doesn't imply that there is a "primary", it leaves room for thought that some may be shared (unlike when naming it "unique"), and it gets the point across in a formal manner. [[Special:Contributions/184.181.98.125|184.181.98.125]] 17:16, December 4, 2019 (EST)

:::Agree with "character-specific mechanic". [[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 17:23, December 4, 2019 (EST)
::::Also agree with "character-specific mechanic" per reasons above. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 17:51, January 2, 2020 (EST)

After seeing Toomai rate [[https://www.ssbwiki.com/User:Toomai/Cloneosity#Data|Terry as a non-clone]] and deciding that he isn't based on his gimmicks, ("Terry has the same "face your enemy" '''gimmick''' as Ryu (+0.25). Terry has his own completely new '''gimmicks''' in the Go! mechanic and three extra moves"), as well as [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f_XSrAQRNfk a satirical video] with 48K views and [https://supersmashbros.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Gimmicks a ripoff of this wiki] call them gimmicks, it shows that the term "gimmick" is still well ingrained in the Smash community. Thus, while I still do agree that "Character-specific mechanic" is a viable option, I now feel that the initial suggestion of "Fighter gimmick" is what will be more recognizable, and thus fits the page better. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 01:33, January 12, 2020 (EST)
:This may or may not change the course of discussion, but when talking about how each character has something different to their moveset than just new moves, [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2aqVlLlKkcg Sakurai called them "new mechanics"] (time at 34.38, sorry I don't know how to link to the time), bringing validity to rename this page "Character-specific mechanic". [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 10:08, January 16, 2020 (EST)
::Bump. I’m pretty sure "Fighter Ability" was made up when this page was wrongly suggested to be deleted. While this page is fine, the name is made up when these sorts of things are often called mechanics or gimmicks by competitive players. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 23:21, March 22, 2020 (EDT)

== Copy Ability ==

Should Copy really count? It exclusively affects his standard special move, and has no effect on any other gameplay, just like Villager's Pocket. [[Special:Contributions/68.190.118.39|68.190.118.39]] 18:08, November 29, 2019 (EST)
:I would say it does count because it changes his neutral special to another move entirely, like how Cloud's Limit Break or Joker's Rebellion Gauge affect their specials. It's also much more extensive than any of the other abilities listed here since there's a unique model and animation for ''every'' character Kirby can copy. ~ [[User:Serena Strawberry|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Serena Strawberry'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Serena Strawberry|talk]]) 16:29, December 3, 2019 (EST)

== "Multiple Weapons" ==

You know how Byleth uses specific weapons depending on the directional input of the Control Stick? Would that technically count as a Fighter Ability, or not?
[[User:Thecontributor22|Thecontributor22]] ([[User talk:Thecontributor22|talk]]) 14:36, January 28, 2020 (EST)

: I'd say no, since it's just a pattern in his moveset. —[[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]] 14:56, January 28, 2020 (EST)

:: Okay, then. Just wanted to know. Thanks for the feedback.[[User:Thecontributor22|Thecontributor22]] ([[User talk:Thecontributor22|talk]]) 08:31, January 30, 2020 (EST)

== What if? ==

We made Fighter Gimmick and Fighter Ability two different articles. Fighter Gimmick would be about Wonderwing and Cloud’s limit gauge and Fighter Gimmick stayed the same. [[User:RobbyB3ll4s|RobbyB3ll4s]] ([[User talk:RobbyB3ll4s|talk]]) 21:53, February 1, 2020 (EST)
:From the looks of it, Fighter Ability was a name made up to prevent this page from being deleted, since it was named "Passive ability" at the time, and most gimmicks are not passive. While it is sort of arbitrary what exactly counts, this page clearly documents character-specific mechanics outside the scope of a general moveset, or extra moves that do not have an equivalent for other characters, not unique B-moves like Wonderwing or Monado Arts. Examples of a Fighter ability in other fighting games are D'Vorah's bug form in Mortal Kombat 11, or Eliza Blood Gauge in Tekken 7. Both of these mechanics are outside the scope of their actual moveset, and few, if any, fighters have something similar. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 22:24, February 1, 2020 (EST)

== Pocket ==

The article states that [[Pocket]] doesn't count since it only affects one move, but it interacts with grab. Should it be added to the list then? —[[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]] 10:37, March 29, 2020 (EDT)

== Recoil ==
Since many of Pichu's moves (namely the ones that involve electricity) cause recoil, would that not count as a fighter ability? I want to counter that Jigglypuff's Balloon Shield Jump is listed as a fighter ability as well. There is also Hydrophobia (where Sonic, Inkling, Charizard, and Incineroar take damage whilst swimming).
[[User:Thecontributor22|Thecontributor22]] ([[User talk:Thecontributor22|talk]]) 14:47, August 2, 2020 (EDT)
:Eh, not really. Multiple fighters (Charizard, Hero, and G&W to name a few) have attacks that cause recoil. The only thing special about Pichu is that most of its moves have recoil. About Jigglypuff's balloon shield jump, I'd actually argue that that doesn't count, as everyone has a shield jump. Jigglypuff's is just significantly higher. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 15:05, August 2, 2020 (EDT)

== Durability ==
Shouldn't durability be considered a shared attribute and moved to that section now? Robin now shares it with Steve. --[[User:Apocalypso|Apocalypso]] ([[User talk:Apocalypso|talk]]) 14:19, October 4, 2020 (EDT)
:The durability mechanics of Robin and Steve are significantly different, just as how Ryu and Terry both have input commands but completely different ones. Robin has to wait for the durability to recover, and will be consumed regardless of if it hits, while Steve can quickly replenish by simply crafting. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 15:16, October 4, 2020 (EDT)
:Quote from the page: "Certain fighters' moves can only be used a certain number of times before running out of durability." – wouldn't that make [[Wonderwing]] also a case of this, then? Should we reword the entry, or add to it? [[Special:Contributions/190.193.175.80|190.193.175.80]] 17:36, February 4, 2021 (EST)

== Air Smashes ==
What about Robin's ability to perform smashes in the air? That's a mechanic that's pretty unique to them. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:89.73.145.240|89.73.145.240]] ([[User talk:89.73.145.240|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/89.73.145.240|contribs]]) 14:04, May 3, 2021 (EDT)</small>
:Already listed under "Shared" with Min Min. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 15:41, May 3, 2021 (EDT)
::Seems that was added after your post. My bad. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 15:43, May 3, 2021 (EDT)

== Luck-based Attacks ==
There are several attacks that rely on chance for their outcome: [[Green Missile]], [[Vegetable]], [[Judge]], [[Command Selection]], etc. Is this enough to be considered a shared fighter ability?[[User:The Other Jared|The Other Jared]] ([[User talk:The Other Jared|talk]]) 14:50, October 11, 2021 (EDT)
:Basic RNG isn't really fighter-specific like Tough Guy or Float. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 14:55, October 11, 2021 (EDT)

== Bayonetta ==
I'm surprised to see that Bayonetta's only gimmick in the list is taunt cancelling. Why aren't the others included? This being Bat Within (maybe it was excluded due to Foresight being added, but it was unique in Smash 4 such as taunt cancelling), the ability to use multiple jumps, bullet arts... --[[User:Pokeantón|Pokeantón]] ([[User talk:Pokeantón|talk]]) 12:50, April 20, 2022 (EDT)

Read the shared ability section more carefully. [[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 13:07, April 20, 2022 (EDT)

== Hydrophobia ==

I'm aware that the tips refer to Sonic and co.'s aversion to water as them being "hydrophobic", but that might not be the best name to use in the article, considering that "hydrophobia" usually refers to late-stage rabies, while "aquaphobia" is used for a more generic fear of water. Thoughts? ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 14:36, December 16, 2023 (EST)
:I did a quick search on the internet, and while "hydrophobia" did refer to rabies due to a negative reaction from rabies victims to liquid, the term also refers (note the present tense) to molecules that are physically repelled from water, which would frankly be an apt description for both beings with literal flames as part of their life force and beings made out of paint—Sonic, on the other hand, would definitely be classified as an aquaphobe. I don't particularly have a strong argument one way or the other, but figured I'd throw my two cents in. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: red;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''the Festive Gamer'''</span>]] 02:26, December 17, 2023 (EST)
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