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| * Charizard's Fly has Super Armor (at least I believe it does, [https://rubendal.github.io/ssbu/#/Character/Charizard the scripts] say damage no reaction w/a 0 which usually means it) from F4. Fun fact, it transitions with a Super Jump Punch flag on F11, likely for the trajectory it goes at. | | * Charizard's Fly has Super Armor (at least I believe it does, [https://rubendal.github.io/ssbu/#/Character/Charizard the scripts] say damage no reaction w/a 0 which usually means it) from F4. Fun fact, it transitions with a Super Jump Punch flag on F11, likely for the trajectory it goes at. |
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| ===Knockback-based Armor=== | | ===Knockback-based Armor== |
| * Bowser's [[Tough Guy]] takes 20 KB Units | | * Bowser's [[Tough Guy]] takes 20 KB Units |
| * DK's Kong Karry takes 16 Units upon beginning a throw. | | * DK's Kong Karry takes 16 Units upon beginning a throw. |
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| This is all I know of, hopefully it's enough to kick the page into high gear. --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 09:49, December 24, 2019 (EST) | | This is all I know of, hopefully it's enough to kick the page into high gear. --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 09:49, December 24, 2019 (EST) |
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| == Split Proposal ==
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| I talked with Serpent King in the Discord, and I feel that this page should be split into the various armor categories while keeping this as a general explanation. I have many reasons for this.
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| * '''Every form of armor has different properties.''' Grab armor, Damage-based (or 'heavy') armor, Super Armor, Subtractive Armor and more all have different properties setting them apart from others. Some are damage-based, some are knockback-based, some don't even care. The only consistency that they really have is that hitlag is sustained, but I believe even grab armor has something different going on there.
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| * '''This page, if it were completed, would be exceedingly long.''' Explaining every form of armor is its own ball game, and if this page wants to serve its purpose as an exhaustive explanation on each it would become one of the longest pages on the wiki. ''Ultimate'' has a massive amount of armor already and making a table for each one without categorization will be extremely messy.
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| * '''The tables here are already very disorganized.''' Brawl has the active frames, Smash 4 does not. On top of this, neither have anything saying clearly what the armor is, instead placing it in the notes. This makes it difficult to really tell what everything is at a glance. If they had their own pages you could easily specialize the tables for the armor in question. For example, Damage-based armor could have active frames and the threshold clearly stated, with maybe notes for things like Snake's Cypher's HP.
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| * '''There is precedent for armor types to have their own pages with [[Belly Super Armor]].''' We have Yoshi's double jump armor (or, Subtractive Armor) on this armor page, yet K. Rool's Belly Super Armor has its own page and not even a reference here. Both of these I believe are fighter abilities, so at minimum there should be a split there. The Belly Super Armor page, in my opinion, shows exactly how the pages for other forms of armor could go: in-depth explanation with a clear list of what moves have it. Given this, at minimum, I believe that Yoshi's Subtractive Armor should have its own page.
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| Of course you may ask how we go about this. I have the perfect idea for this. Leave this page as a form of disambiguation, with let's say a general explanation on how armor works. Then, list off the armor pages for players to link to them. Kind of like how neutral attack pages go. I feel this would greatly aid users in learning how this mechanic works. If you're after any data on armor, I have a small albeit slightly incomplete list above. Of course Smash 4, Brawl, Melee and 64 have not been considered. I'm fully willing to help make these into pages.
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| Hope you consider my proposition, and thanks for reading! --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 16:22, January 2, 2020 (EST)
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| :If there is to be a split, it should be like we have for [[meteor smash]]es: a page for the mechanic, and per-game pages for the lists of what has it. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Riotous 16:48, January 2, 2020 (EST)
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| ::This is a fantastic idea and would help flesh out the mechanics a lot more while keeping everything accessible. We could also use this to explain how the armor worked in each game, a "changes from x" sort of thing. Not sure if there's many like that though, I know Yoshi had a change regarding it. --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 16:53, January 2, 2020 (EST)
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| :::I '''support''' splitting this page with one page for the mechanic and individual lists for armor per character. It sounds like a good idea, especially since this page is so huge. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 17:55, January 2, 2020 (EST)
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| I've made a page as an example of what the pages could look like '''[[User:Plague_von_Karma/Damage-based_Armor|here]]''', with damage-based armor. Can be mainspaced if there is enough support for the split.--[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 07:10, January 4, 2020 (EST)
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| :This is not the split I supported. I suggested a split into:
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| :*[armour]
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| :*[List of armoured attacks (SSBB)]
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| :*[List of armoured attacks (SSB4)]
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| :*[List of armoured attacks (SSBU)]
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| :Splitting the main mechanic page into subtypes would not be necessary if we instead split the main source of the bloat (the lists). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Awesome 08:57, January 4, 2020 (EST)
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| ::I know, I made this as a draft so the information is easier to put into categories. I'm moving house in 2 days so I don't have as much time as I'd like to make drafts of categories. Of courses, if you want to edit all that in, I'm A-OK with it. - [[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 09:30, January 4, 2020 (EST)
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| :::Been a while but I followed through and got [[List_of_armoured_attacks_(SSBU)|the first list page]] sorted. Sorry for the wait. --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 23:46, February 5, 2020 (EST)
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| ::::Got S4 data sorted [[List_of_armoured_attacks_(SSB4)|here]]. Brawl is luckily logged on this page so I'll likely pull it from there. --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 10:56, February 10, 2020 (EST)
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| :::::[[List_of_armoured_attacks_(SSBB)|Brawl list is done now as well.]] That's everything I believe. --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 12:50, February 10, 2020 (EST)
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| Just want to bump the discussion a bit. Any thoughts on my pages? --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 19:02, February 21, 2020 (EST)
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| Got approval from Toomai to beam everything up. This was a wild ride from start to finish! --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 21:51, February 29, 2020 (EST)
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| :That's an insane amount of information you put into all of those pages, and I love it. I'm glad you were able to stick through the whole thing. I have only one, small thing to possibly add and that is redirects for the lists for those of us who use 'armor' instead of 'armour'.--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 22:08, February 29, 2020 (EST)
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| ::I uh...don't know how to do that, actually. --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 23:30, February 29, 2020 (EST)
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| :::Just did it for my first time. It is <nowiki>#REDIRECT [[target]]</nowiki>. Just go to an 'invalid' page, create, and put that in there.--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 23:36, February 29, 2020 (EST)
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| ::::Sorted. That should be everything! --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 23:46, February 29, 2020 (EST)
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| ==Rename "Knockback-based Armor" to "Heavy Armor"?==
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| In many external sources and even some Youtube videos, I have heard people refer to Knockback-based Armor as "Heavy Armor".I think that it would be better to call it Heavy Armor on the wiki. Not only is it more widely used, but it's much quicker to write and say. That's just my opinion, though.[[User:Thecontributor22|Thecontributor22]] ([[User talk:Thecontributor22|talk]]) 18:46, August 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| :So when I was doing the rewrite for the page, there were issues with using the Heavy Armor umbrella of terminology. I wound up having conversations with a few contributors about it in the end, and wound up using these terms. Kurogane Hammer coined them, uses them on his frame data sheets, and I feel it's far more effective. Few people actually know what "Heavy Armor" is supposed to mean. The meaning of it is extremely blurred and is often applied to Damage-based Armor as well. People also tend to use "Light Armor" for smaller values. It's obnoxious. This has led to armor becoming one of the most misunderstood mechanics in the game when there are much simpler, defined terms to use. It's also much easier to abbreviate, with KB Armor and % Armor being common notation, at least in my circles. [[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]] 19:02, August 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::I agree with Plague here. Heavy armor tends to be too vague a term as not only is it commonly confused with super armor by beginners (who are more likely to refer to this part of the wiki), but it doesn’t properly identify the grounds by which the armor can be interrupted. The terms we currently use are definitely the best ones, cemented further by similarly agreed-upon terminology in other games.[[User:Rc52|Rc52]] ([[User talk:Rc52|talk]]) 19:18, August 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::I support Plague's argument as the terminology is already confusing/unintuitive for newer players because of armor definitions varying amongst veterans of the series. Having the Heavy/Light Armor excaberates the issue of having no solid definition. [[User:Lekis|Lekis]] ([[User talk:Lekis|talk]]) 19:25, August 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::I think Plague's wording just makes more sense. It explains the mechanics easily without being confusing. No reason to muddle it up again. [[Special:Contributions/50.89.179.76|50.89.179.76]] 19:59, August 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::I want to echo what everyone has said here. The lack of specification that 'Heavy Armor' has has proven to be difficult for new players to understand when met with both of the armors that fall into this category. By splitting them like this into KB-based and %-based, it becomes a lot more easier to understand. [[User:EyeDonutz|EyeDonutz]] ([[User talk:EyeDonutz|talk]]) 20:22, August 30, 2020 (EDT)
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