Editing Forum:P+ content
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{{forumheader|Proposals}} | {{forumheader|Proposals}} | ||
{{Proposal | {{Proposal}} | ||
Following the development of Project+, we find ourselves in need of answers for how we should handle it. There are a number of different methods we could go about doing this, and it is the aim of this proposal to cover all of it. | Following the development of Project+, we find ourselves in need of answers for how we should handle it. There are a number of different methods we could go about doing this, and it is the aim of this proposal to cover all of it. | ||
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==Part 1: Do we cover this at all?== | ==Part 1: Do we cover this at all?== | ||
If this section gets support, the following will occur: | If this section gets support, the following will occur: | ||
*Project + will get its own article (the PM article will be untouched, aside from mentioning P+) | *Project + will get its own article (the PM article will be untouched, aside from mentioning P+) | ||
*An article icon will be added for use on event articles (and P+ specific articles should that be decided on) only. | *An article icon will be added for use on event articles (and P+ specific articles should that be decided on) only. | ||
'''If you oppose this part of the proposal, please do not vote on the rest of it.''' | '''If you oppose this part of the proposal, please do not vote on the rest of it.''' | ||
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#Support due to its rising popularity rivaling PM, and with the PM scene seeming to be moving towards P+. Just as with PM, even if this isn't an official Smash game, its significance to the Smash community is enough for us to document it. '''[[User:Voqéo|<span style="background:#000; color:white; padding:2px 6px;font-size:12px;">Voqéo</span>]][[User talk:Voqéo|<span style="background:#e70012; color:white; padding:2px 4px;font-size:12px;">T</span>]]''' 21:25, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | #Support due to its rising popularity rivaling PM, and with the PM scene seeming to be moving towards P+. Just as with PM, even if this isn't an official Smash game, its significance to the Smash community is enough for us to document it. '''[[User:Voqéo|<span style="background:#000; color:white; padding:2px 6px;font-size:12px;">Voqéo</span>]][[User talk:Voqéo|<span style="background:#e70012; color:white; padding:2px 4px;font-size:12px;">T</span>]]''' 21:25, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#While Project Plus is distinct from Project M in many ways, I have witnessed it become the de facto successor to Project M in my local scene and at the events I have traveled to since its inception. The netplay build of P+ 2.0 has reached [https://twitter.com/boikish/status/1247620649104879617 over 100,000 downloads] on the primary site alone, as one measurement of its popularity. While this is certainly not peak Project M notoriety, it still reinforces the idea that Project Plus is the new standard for much of the world. If Project M is worth covering, then I believe Project Plus has crossed that threshold as well. [[User:FlashingFire|FlashingFire]] ([[User talk:FlashingFire|talk]]) 22:02, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | #While Project Plus is distinct from Project M in many ways, I have witnessed it become the de facto successor to Project M in my local scene and at the events I have traveled to since its inception. The netplay build of P+ 2.0 has reached [https://twitter.com/boikish/status/1247620649104879617 over 100,000 downloads] on the primary site alone, as one measurement of its popularity. While this is certainly not peak Project M notoriety, it still reinforces the idea that Project Plus is the new standard for much of the world. If Project M is worth covering, then I believe Project Plus has crossed that threshold as well. [[User:FlashingFire|FlashingFire]] ([[User talk:FlashingFire|talk]]) 22:02, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#Project+ is essentially the continued development of Project M and most of the community is moving forward with it. I see no reason as to why we should deny it. [[User:Pokebub|Pokebub]] ([[User talk:Pokebub|talk]]) 23:38, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | #Project+ is essentially the continued development of Project M and most of the community is moving forward with it. I see no reason as to why we should deny it. [[User:Pokebub|Pokebub]] ([[User talk:Pokebub|talk]]) 23:38, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#Project+ is the new Project M, there's no ifs or buts about it. If the wiki wants to get with the times regarding what the most popular competitive ''Super Smash Bros.'' mod is, then adding full, fleshed out content on Project+ and its features is the way to go. [[User:Untitled-1|BIG CHUNGUS]] ([[User talk:Untitled-1|Talk to me about why Pikmin is the greatest series ever and why it deserves much better representation in Smash]]) 04:09, April 10, 2020 (EDT) | #Project+ is the new Project M, there's no ifs or buts about it. If the wiki wants to get with the times regarding what the most popular competitive ''Super Smash Bros.'' mod is, then adding full, fleshed out content on Project+ and its features is the way to go. [[User:Untitled-1|BIG CHUNGUS]] ([[User talk:Untitled-1|Talk to me about why Pikmin is the greatest series ever and why it deserves much better representation in Smash]]) 04:09, April 10, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#Project Plus is now more important then PM so it’s a good idea to cover it by either making new pages or replacing pm contain [[User:Thegameandwatch|Thegameandwatch]] ([[User talk:Thegameandwatch|talk]]) | #Project Plus is now more important then PM so it’s a good idea to cover it by either making new pages or replacing pm contain [[User:Thegameandwatch|Thegameandwatch]] ([[User talk:Thegameandwatch|talk]]) | ||
#Sentiments I expressed in the past still apply here, I still don't care for PM/P+ and I will probably never touch P+, but until server space/costs become an actual issue or Nintendo C&Ds us I don't see any problem with covering it as long as there are users willing to do the work for those articles. We always been a community-centric wiki after all, so I wouldn't say it stretches our scope. However I think it's reasonable to wait some time to see if P+ isn't just a fad, so I wouldn't oppose waiting to add content on the condition of P+ showing it has the sticking power to supplant PM. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 07:48, April 10, 2020 (EDT) | #Sentiments I expressed in the past still apply here, I still don't care for PM/P+ and I will probably never touch P+, but until server space/costs become an actual issue or Nintendo C&Ds us I don't see any problem with covering it as long as there are users willing to do the work for those articles. We always been a community-centric wiki after all, so I wouldn't say it stretches our scope. However I think it's reasonable to wait some time to see if P+ isn't just a fad, so I wouldn't oppose waiting to add content on the condition of P+ showing it has the sticking power to supplant PM. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 07:48, April 10, 2020 (EDT) | ||
===Oppose=== | ===Oppose=== | ||
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#Give it a page of its own, like we do for 20XX, Brawl Minus, etc. Do not give it anything beyond that until it garners the same level of mass media coverage that PM did. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Chilled 20:23, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | #Give it a page of its own, like we do for 20XX, Brawl Minus, etc. Do not give it anything beyond that until it garners the same level of mass media coverage that PM did. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Chilled 20:23, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#:I feel like I should elaborate a little more. PM only has such prominence on the wiki because there was a time where it was being noticed and reported on by large news outlets as an impressive and unique feat, for example how IGN created one of their in-house wikis for it with the same degree of prominence as any other game. I do not believe any other mod, regardless of anything, should be considered for "article icon status" or such until it can at least match this level of "casual prominence". Of course, it is more than welcome to have its own page on the wiki much like any other popular mod, and I don't really see anything wrong with listing it on tournament pages (as long as no one tries to slide Knuckles into the wiki's head template or anything, display that manually if you have to). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brazen 22:44, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | #:I feel like I should elaborate a little more. PM only has such prominence on the wiki because there was a time where it was being noticed and reported on by large news outlets as an impressive and unique feat, for example how IGN created one of their in-house wikis for it with the same degree of prominence as any other game. I do not believe any other mod, regardless of anything, should be considered for "article icon status" or such until it can at least match this level of "casual prominence". Of course, it is more than welcome to have its own page on the wiki much like any other popular mod, and I don't really see anything wrong with listing it on tournament pages (as long as no one tries to slide Knuckles into the wiki's head template or anything, display that manually if you have to). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brazen 22:44, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
===Neutral=== | ===Neutral=== | ||
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:::::::Once again, that's irrelevant. The popularity of a mod doesn't change anything. The SmashWiki is an outlier among Nintendo Wikis because for some reason a significant portion of the community is ok with being completely inconsistent with regards to what we do and don't cover, and hence we end up turning a blind eye to excessive amounts of content on mods (which incidentally always ends up becoming outdated and inaccurate because most of the editors aren't willing to contribute to them, which is in part due to the fact that on some level they realize that these articles don't belong here). ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 19:35, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | :::::::Once again, that's irrelevant. The popularity of a mod doesn't change anything. The SmashWiki is an outlier among Nintendo Wikis because for some reason a significant portion of the community is ok with being completely inconsistent with regards to what we do and don't cover, and hence we end up turning a blind eye to excessive amounts of content on mods (which incidentally always ends up becoming outdated and inaccurate because most of the editors aren't willing to contribute to them, which is in part due to the fact that on some level they realize that these articles don't belong here). ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 19:35, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
::::::::If you're gonna compare us to other wikis, Bulbapedia covers {{iw|bulbapedia|Pokémon Showdown}}, which isn't related to Nintendo or The Pokémon Company, yet still has a huge userbase. If something's really popular that it gets attention from the press, it's our job to cover it. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:41, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ::::::::If you're gonna compare us to other wikis, Bulbapedia covers {{iw|bulbapedia|Pokémon Showdown}}, which isn't related to Nintendo or The Pokémon Company, yet still has a huge userbase. If something's really popular that it gets attention from the press, it's our job to cover it. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:41, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
(reset indent) Let me ask you, then. What do we do if there's a major P+ tournament (which is gonna come no matter what). Do we just not acknowledge it? [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:32, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | (reset indent) Let me ask you, then. What do we do if there's a major P+ tournament (which is gonna come no matter what). Do we just not acknowledge it? [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:32, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
:Exactly, because it's not our job to acknowledge it, that's the job of modding Wikis like the PM Wiki. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 19:37, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | :Exactly, because it's not our job to acknowledge it, that's the job of modding Wikis like the PM Wiki. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 19:37, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
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::"''pushing for the removal of information with the argument that it's not approved/endorsed by Nintendo (such as the ''Brawl'' mod [[Project M]]) will not be acceptable.''" | ::"''pushing for the removal of information with the argument that it's not approved/endorsed by Nintendo (such as the ''Brawl'' mod [[Project M]]) will not be acceptable.''" | ||
::The fact still stands that P+ is having a | ::The fact still stands that P+ is having a signifficant impact in the Smash community. The fact that it's a mod does not mean we must completely ignore it. | ||
::''"The largest PM tournament has more entrants than both the largest Brawl and Smash 64 tournaments", entirely irrelevant.''" No, it is completely | ::''"The largest PM tournament has more entrants than both the largest Brawl and Smash 64 tournaments", entirely irrelevant.''" No, it is completely relevent. The fact that PM was overshadowing Brawl in terms of competitive play was one of the reasons why we started having PM content in the first place. Completely disregarding any mention of P+ just because it's "not official" is a terrible reason to oppose. | ||
::"''The popularity of a mod doesn't change anything.''" Yes it does. Again why do we have pages for PM in the first place? Because of its popularity in the community. Project + has nearly overshadowed PM in terms of competitive play, it's enough to make it notable on this wiki. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="font-family:Algerian">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd</font> <font color="aqua">the Toαd Wαrrior</font>]] [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">(BUP)</font></span>]]''' 20:16, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ::"''The popularity of a mod doesn't change anything.''" Yes it does. Again why do we have pages for PM in the first place? Because of its popularity in the community. Project + has nearly overshadowed PM in terms of competitive play, it's enough to make it notable on this wiki. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="font-family:Algerian">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd</font> <font color="aqua">the Toαd Wαrrior</font>]] [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">(BUP)</font></span>]]''' 20:16, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
==Part 2: What do we do about the character articles== | ==Part 2: What do we do about the character articles== | ||
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# It’s probably a better idea to just put the project plus in the existing pm pages with an p+ page separate from pm [[User:Thegameandwatch|Thegameandwatch]] ([[User talk:Thegameandwatch|talk]]) | # It’s probably a better idea to just put the project plus in the existing pm pages with an p+ page separate from pm [[User:Thegameandwatch|Thegameandwatch]] ([[User talk:Thegameandwatch|talk]]) | ||
# We should treat P+ as essentially just a PM update in my opinion. --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 05:34, April 10, 2020 (EDT) | # We should treat P+ as essentially just a PM update in my opinion. --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 05:34, April 10, 2020 (EDT) | ||
===Make separate articles for Project + characters=== | ===Make separate articles for Project + characters=== | ||
#Given that several characters have massive changes (IE: Bowser/Charzard) and to keep things together, should we get the wiki it would be better to have everything pertaining to it in one area - WaveOfSilence <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:142.167.13.88|142.167.13.88]] ([[User talk:142.167.13.88|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/142.167.13.88|contribs]]) 19:56, April 9, 2020 (EDT)</small> | #Given that several characters have massive changes (IE: Bowser/Charzard) and to keep things together, should we get the wiki it would be better to have everything pertaining to it in one area - WaveOfSilence <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:142.167.13.88|142.167.13.88]] ([[User talk:142.167.13.88|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/142.167.13.88|contribs]]) 19:56, April 9, 2020 (EDT)</small> | ||
===Nothing, do not cover Project + characters=== | ===Nothing, do not cover Project + characters=== | ||
#'''I would like to clarify that I only believe this as a temporary measure'''. For now, P+ does not have enough popularity to warrant pages for every P+ character. And as per my concerns earlier about distinguishing PM and P+, making P+ an addendum onto the PM character pages will cause additional problems. If/when P+ reaches the same levels of popularity as PM, then we can reconsider, but for now this is the best option. I would also be open to a condensed page in the style of [[User:Miles of SmashWiki/PM condensing]] but with changelogs also noted as an intermediate measure, but that is outside the scope of this proposal. [[User:DekZek|<font color="MidnightBlue">'''Dek'''</font><font color="Blue">'''Zek'''</font>]] [[File:Dekzeksig.png|20px|link=User talk:DekZek]] 19:16, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | #'''I would like to clarify that I only believe this as a temporary measure'''. For now, P+ does not have enough popularity to warrant pages for every P+ character. And as per my concerns earlier about distinguishing PM and P+, making P+ an addendum onto the PM character pages will cause additional problems. If/when P+ reaches the same levels of popularity as PM, then we can reconsider, but for now this is the best option. I would also be open to a condensed page in the style of [[User:Miles of SmashWiki/PM condensing]] but with changelogs also noted as an intermediate measure, but that is outside the scope of this proposal. [[User:DekZek|<font color="MidnightBlue">'''Dek'''</font><font color="Blue">'''Zek'''</font>]] [[File:Dekzeksig.png|20px|link=User talk:DekZek]] 19:16, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#:Meh I would worry that such an article would be far too long, especially if we decide not to trim off content from the PM articles. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;border:outset #083 2px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;background:#ed0;padding:1px">Serpent</span>]][[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;background:#083;padding:1px">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:27, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | #:Meh I would worry that such an article would be far too long, especially if we decide not to trim off content from the PM articles. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;border:outset #083 2px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;background:#ed0;padding:1px">Serpent</span>]][[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;background:#083;padding:1px">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:27, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
===Comments=== | ===Comments=== | ||
Will a Knuckles icon be added anyways? [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:19, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | Will a Knuckles icon be added anyways? [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:19, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
:If we decide to cover the project, yes at least for use in tournament results. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;border:outset #083 2px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;background:#ed0;padding:1px">Serpent</span>]][[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;background:#083;padding:1px">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:20, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | :If we decide to cover the project, yes at least for use in tournament results. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;border:outset #083 2px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;background:#ed0;padding:1px">Serpent</span>]][[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;background:#083;padding:1px">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:20, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
As of right now I feel as though we should wait to see if P+ makes significant changes to characters. Unless P+ completely "replaces" PM I don't think the first option will work. | As of right now I feel as though we should wait to see if P+ makes significant changes to characters. Unless P+ completely "replaces" PM I don't think the first option will work..[[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="font-family:Algerian">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd</font> <font color="aqua">the Toαd Wαrrior</font>]] [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">(BUP)</font></span>]]''' 19:53, April 9, 2020 (EDT) |