Editing Talk:Tier list

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{{notice|We understand that tiers are a point of contention among members of the Smash community. However, this page discusses the tier lists that the Smash Back Room and other similarly-authorative sources have posted. These are accepted by almost every high level player, and as such are important and notable content to this wiki. Discussion on this talk page should be limited to the content of the page, not to debate on the ordering of tiers, '''we report the tier lists, we don't decide them'''. If you want to discuss the tier lists or argue tier placements, take it to another website, not here.

Additionally, '''do not use this page to argue about the existence of tiers'''. If you firmly believe tiers do not exist and are intent on changing the Wiki's stance about it, go see the argument we have on it on [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|this page here]], and thoroughly refute the treatise on its talk page, do not argue it here.}}

<big>'''Simplified version of the above:  <span style="color:green">Don't edit this page unless you have something to contribute about ''what'' our tier list sources have said and the content of this article. We don't care if you disagree with them or tiers in general.</span></big>'''

==Where is Ultimate's tier list?==
It may take long but I didn't really expect it to be thIS long.

Maybe 2020 because smash 4 tier list came out in 2016 two years after the games came out in 2014 [[User:Thegameandwatch|Thegameandwatch]] ([[User talk:Thegameandwatch|talk]]) 14:57, 7 February 2019 (EST)

I found a really trustworthy one on r/smashbros that factored votes and tournament results.
SS: Peach, Pichu, Lucina, Inkling, Pikachu
S: Wolf, Olimar, Ike, Palutena, Fox
A: Marth, Wario, Chrom, Snake, PKMN Trainer, Cloud, Roy, Link, Yoshi, Young Link, ROB
B:Donkey Kong, Ness
C: Shulk, Megaman, Simon, Mewtwo, Greninja, Falco, Luigi, Mario, Lucario, Bowser, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus, Meta Knight, Lucas, Mii Swordfighter, Toon Link
D: Shulk, Pit, Dark Pit, Bayonetta, Jigglypuff, Diddy Kong, Ryu, Ganondorf, Corrin, Captain Falcon, Samus, Isabelle, Villager, King K Rool
E: Zelda, Ridley, Incineroar, King DeDeDe, Wii fit Trainer, Dr Mario, Pac Man
F:Robin, Game and Watch, Ice Climbers, Rosalina, Shiek, Duck Hunt, Mii Brawler
G:Bowser Jr, Kirby
H: Little mac

[[User:KillerIncineroar|KillerIncineroar]] ([[User talk:KillerIncineroar|talk]]) 19:24, 18 February 2019 (EST)

Sorry if its weirdly formatted [[User:KillerIncineroar|KillerIncineroar]] ([[User talk:KillerIncineroar|talk]]) 19:24, 18 February 2019 (EST)

: Currently, the problem with SSBU tier lists is that the meta is still heavily undecided. SmashCentralOfficial has been doing monthly tier lists based on tournament plays (aka: non-subjective opinion), and they've been changing quite a bit each month. [[Special:Contributions/46.238.6.59|46.238.6.59]] 08:27, March 18, 2019 (EDT)

yeah, its been 5 months (or around that time) since super smash bros ultimate came out, I think a tier list should have released. [[Special:Contributions/98.127.69.195|98.127.69.195]] 00:12, May 28, 2019 (EDT) (:)
:''Smash 4''{{'}}s Smash Backroom tier list wasn't released until February 2016, well over a year after ''Smash 4'' was released. Even then, it was controversial since Corrin and Bayonetta were unreleased. ''Ultimate'', therefore, would most likely have to wait until the final DLC is released and out for a few months before an official tier list will be attempted. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 21:02, August 23, 2019 (EDT)

Here's the most recent tier list I could find reliable on r/smashbros (ordered, as of 4.0.0): 
Top (SS, S), High (A, B), Middle (C, D), Low (E, F) and Bottom (G)
SS: Joker, Peach/Daisy, Snake, Pikachu
S: Pokemon Trainer, Lucina, Inkling, Palutena, Wolf, Wario, ZSS, Olimar, Roy, Fox, Chrom
A: Greninja, Pichu, Shulk, R.O.B., Mega Man, Mario
B: Young Link, Pac Man, Bowser, Cloud, Ike, Yoshi, Ken, Ness
C: Link, Marth, Diddy Kong, Mr. Game & Watch, Luigi, Falco
D: Captain Falcon, Toon Link, Ryu, Duck Hunt, Meta Knight, Lucario, Wii Fit Trainer, Sonic, Simon/Richter, Hero, Ice Climbers, (Dark) Samus, Rosalina & Luma
E: Villager, Bayonetta, Lucas, Robin, Ridley, Incineroar
F: (Dark) Pit, King Dedede, Sheik, Mii Brawler, Mewtwo, Corrin, Donkey Kong, Mii Swordfighter, Mii Gunner, Zelda, Ganondorf, Dr. Mario
G: Piranha Plant, Bowser Jr., Isabelle, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Little Mac, King K. Rool
[[User:TigerZ ligerZ|TigerZ ligerZ]] ([[User talk:TigerZ ligerZ|talk]]) 19:59, September 14, 2019 (EDT)
:We don't use Reddit's tier list, since it's not the official one released from Smashboards. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 20:01, September 14, 2019 (EDT)

For now, could we just include a reason for a lack thereof like with Smash 4 before it received "official" tier lists?

"There is no widely accepted or widely referenced tier list for ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' at present. Reasons for this include the game receiving balance patches every few months and the addition of [[Downloadable content (SSBU)|downloadable content]] characters, meaning that the competitive metagame is currently too unstable for the creation of a proper tier list." ''~'''[[User:Marlotix|Marlotix]]''''' ([[User talk:Marlotix|Talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Marlotix|Contributions]]) 14:09, September 16, 2019 (EDT)
:I guess it's fine, we did that before the Smash 4 one came out. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 15:25, September 16, 2019 (EDT)

As of the recent tier list for 7.00 my opinions.
Top (S, A+, A) High (A-, B+, B) Upper Mid (B-, C+, C) Mid (C-, D, E) Lower Mid (F) Low/Bottom (G)
S: Joker, Pikachu, Peach/Daisy
A+: Lucina, Snake, Pokemon Trainer
A: Palutena, MG&W, Mario, Fox, Shulk, Pichu, ZZS, Inkling
A-: Roy, Ike, Chrom, Young Link, Wolf, Greninja, Wario, Yoshi, Pac-Man
B+: Cloud, Bowser, B%K, Olimar/Alph, Link, Ness, R.O.B, All Hero Alts
B: Marth, Luigi, Terry, Ken, Falco, Duck Hunt, Lucario, Diddy Kong, Mega Man
B-: Ryu, Byleth, Sonic, Toon Link
C+: Meta Knight, Ice Climbers, Mewtwo, Simon/Richter, Wii Fit Trainer
C: Zelda, R&L, Samus/Dark Samus, Lucas, Captain Falcon
C-: Shiek, Pit/Dark Pit, Mii Gunner/Sans
D: Mii Swordfighter, Villager, Robin, Jigglypuff
E: Bayonetta, Corrin, Mii Brawler, Isabelle, Piranha Plant
F: Bowser Jr., Incineroar, Ganondorf, King Dedede, Donkey Kong, King K Rool
G: Ridley, Dr. Mario, Kirby, Little Mac
Just saying. Just my thoughts. Been over 2 years already in 2020. No official smash ultimate wiki has come out. [[User talk:Howplayz|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Howplayz</span>]] 10:34
AM, March 24 2020

the website already discussing this topic [[Forum:Tier list debate 2020: Part 1]] [[User:Thegameandwatch|Thegameandwatch]] ([[User talk:Thegameandwatch|talk]]) 14:00, March 24, 2020 (EDT)

Just wondering, why is/has Lucina so said to be so broken? I play her and I found her no better then Marth (who I play as well) as she has much more consistent kill power and edguarding for sure, but unless you get hit by a back air or forward/up smash she can have trouble killing, which Marth doesn’t have as much due to his kill potions being less consistent but much more widespread, and also I find her incapable of getting any relatively early kills. Unlike Marth, who can kill at Ganondorf percentages. So why is she so broken? She is a good character for sure, but how come people think she is so broken?
[[User:MetaKnightX6|MetaKnightX6]] ([[User talk:MetaKnightX6|talk]]) 17:16, July 5, 2021 (EDT)

:I don't get what you are saying, nobody is calling Lucina broken? Lucina is generally considered a top tier character and is widely regarded as a better character than Marth competitively. The recent Marth buffs are moderate at best and take time to tell how much it affects the character. [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]]  [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 23:46, July 5, 2021 (EDT)

==information that can change tiers==

post information here that can potentially change the tiers of characters. (use technical data as much as possible, and not personal bias)<small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:184.166.255.30|184.166.255.30]] ([[User talk:184.166.255.30|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/184.166.255.30|contribs]]) 00:15, September 12, 2018 (EDT)</small>

== project m? ==

I know I know it's a mod, but it is the most popular one by far. It is also featured in many high level tournaments and they just had their biggest one at the even bigger balc. Doesn't it already have a tier list too on their main page? I think project m should also be on the navigation screen, but maybe that's just me idk. {{User|Sweetstu24}} 12:01, 12 July 2018 (EST)
:I agree, it should be there [[User:Patzui|Patzui]] ([[User talk:Patzui|talk]]) 12:11, 10 December 2018 (EST)

It’s in the mod article in this wiki [[User:Thegameandwatch|Thegameandwatch]] ([[User talk:Thegameandwatch|talk]]) 12:51, 9 March 2019 (EST)

== 2021 melee tier list/Ultimate tier list ==

I just noticed a new tier list for Melee from a different source that aggregated players' opinions on viability, which was one possibility from the tier list discussion to use since the usual source has been dormant. Was there a part 2 of the tier list discussion that only happened privately, and if so, are there any aggregated tier lists for Ultimate being considered to put here the same way one was put here for Melee? [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 22:49, June 22, 2021 (EDT)
:Part 2 hasn't happened yet. The only reason we have the current tier list for ''Melee'' is because there were the opinions of many top players and created through a rather trustworthy source (PGStats), so there was little to no opposition for its inclusion on the wiki. 
:As for ''Ultimate'', DLC hasn't ended yet so I doubt we'll get any legitimate tier list, aggregated or not, for at least another year or so. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 23:17, June 22, 2021 (EDT)

== Should we create a section about online tier lists and the differences between online and offline tier lists ==

I initially added it, but an admin called Miles removed it and explained that such a significant section should be first discussed. 

I think we should, as they are EXTREMELY different as Ganondorf and all the glass cannons out there literally own online due to them being way harder to punish and edgeguard whilst the fast agile top tiers are heavily hindered by the gameplay alterations.

If we decide to add this section, I would like it to be worded like this:

“Due to increased input delay and gameplay differences online, the 2 types of tier lists are completely different.
 	
Notable examples can be Ganondorf and Joker. They are generally seen to be as bottom and top tiers offline, respectively, but due to input delay, Ganondorf is far less punishable, and can pressure shields far more easily, and struggles less against faster characters, with people often saying that he ‘owns’ online. However Joker, is more towards the lower tiers online, due to his combos being harder to perform, his edgeguarding potential worsened, and his shield breaking potential still not being impressive despite the increased pressure possible to apply, and has more trouble pressuring opponents in general.”

[[User:MetaKnightX6|MetaKnightX6]] ([[User talk:MetaKnightX6|talk]]) 14:41, July 5, 2021 (EDT)

:The difference between online and offline is too subjective to be reliable. Ultimate also doesn't have a tier list, making the proposed section pointless. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 17:42, July 5, 2021 (EDT)
::Ganondorf isn't magically top tier online, lol. Lag doesn't change a character's viability. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 18:06, July 5, 2021 (EDT)

There is a lot wrong with what you have up there, so I'll break it down:
:"Ganondorf and all the glass cannons out there literally own online due to them being way harder to punish"
::Except, they don't own online. Aside from Game & Watch, who himself is already widely considered a top tier offline, most glass cannons still see little to no results. You point out Ganondorf as an example, but not only does Ganondorf have [[WWR v6|no representation at all on the current Wi-Fi Warrior Rank]], but even in the online SWT qualifiers, which features some of the most stacked online tournaments ever, Ganondorf [https://www.pgstats.com/articles/win-rates-and-pick-rates-at-the-online-qualifiers-super-smash-bros-ultimate is rather uncommon and has more losses than wins]. Even if you ignore SWT, Ganondorf still sees little representation at the major online tournaments. For example, the S-tier tournament {{Trn|The Airlock}} only has 2 Ganondorf players in top 48 and none past top 24. If Ganondorf truly does "owns" online, then we'd see Ganondorf players place consistently in top 16 at major tournaments like The Airlock.
:"the fast agile top tiers are heavily hindered by the gameplay alterations"
::Pikachu and Roy are fast, agile top tier characters, yet they still continue to do very well online. In addition, even though Peach and Joker are seen as worse than their offline counterparts, they aren't suddenly low tier due to the input delay. What about Samsora, who despite having a bad time online still managed to rank in the top 50 on the [[WWR v5|most stacked online season yet]]? Or Sharp, who has pulled out Joker as a secondary and co-main at several WWR-ranked tournaments and seen success? 
:"Due to increased input delay and gameplay differences online, the 2 types of tier lists are completely different"
::Kind of a reiteration on my point, but the input delay, while affects characters, does not really affect their viability. Strong online characters such as Ness, Game & Watch, R.O.B., and Min Min are still strong characters offline. On the other hand, while weak offline characters such as Little Mac, Jigglypuff, and even Ganondorf have their good Wi-Fi Warriors, they still have overall abysmal performances online. Despite the common perception, for the most part the characters who are good offline are still good online, and the characters who are bad offline may have a bit more benefits online, but are ultimately still bad online.
Finally, with DLC ongoing until December, we won't see an actual, "good" ''Ultimate'' tier list until at least a year later, so even if we do consider an online tier list, we won't be adding one anytime soon. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 23:09, July 5, 2021 (EDT)

==Auto-generated Tier list?==
I'm not savvy in much of the possibilities of wiki data, but I have been wondering if it is possible to set up an auto-generated "tier list" that is created using the results of confirmed tournament play, restricted within a major update period (ie: a moveset update would result in a new tier list being generated to be accurate to the present while the past version could be able to show the real shifts over time of how the updates are affecting the gameplay at higher play)? As there is only one DLC character left, and there could well be only one more moveset update after that point (to re-balance gameplay after they are tested in the wild).

It could be based on character vs character results, adjusted by stock difference/match duration (but not based on total victories, beyond determining their match-up against a particular character, as popularity alone would drive that number higher)? At the least, it would only be based on information that should not be affected by bias (beyond that of the players choosing which characters to use at the time). While early on it would surely show many less-popular characters as "low-tier" merely due to reduced usage (as there is a LOT of characters), it could start giving a real idea of how they really do match up, and over time it would start to show.  [[User:Jarie Suicune|Jarie Suicune]] ([[User talk:Jarie Suicune|talk]]) 16:48, September 4, 2021 (EDT)
:First, what you describe is honestly very complicated to the point where the effort may not be worth it (it also requires actual coding and data structure rather than wikitext, something that most users on here most likely do not know). Even if we were able to do that, it is still not an accurate representation of the current metagame. Remember, representation is just one (albeit, major) part of tier lists. There's also their overall strengths and weaknesses as well as matchups against other characters, which can't easily be measured solely through competitive matches. If we base it solely on representation in tournament, then [https://twitter.com/LoopBarnard/status/1432416432281772036 the current top 3 would be R.O.B., Roy, and Palutena], a top three that almost no one would agree with. Furthermore, even if there is a character considered top tier, if the character doesn't have great representation, they aren't ever going to be ranked that high. For example, Pikachu is widely considered a top 10 character, with some going as far as to say the best, thanks to its good frame data. However, [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/edit#gid=342014565 Pikachu is only ranked 23rd for usage in 2019] and is barely in top 30 for usage in 2021; both placements aren't considered top tier. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 17:23, September 4, 2021 (EDT)

== Well known ultimate tier lists? ==

Could we post well known ultimate tier lists or ones done by popular YouTubers/streamers? Like MKleo’s and pro guides? Or would that break some sort of rule? ([[User:XxP1NKxX|XxP1NKxX]] ([[User talk:XxP1NKxX|talk]]) 19:07, October 2, 2021 (EDT))
:Tier lists here are supposed to reflect what the entire community currently thinks. Adding a tier list from only one player does not reflect what the entire community thinks. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:09, October 2, 2021 (EDT)

Okay, what about one from pro guides (or something similar) that is stat or system based instead? I can understand problems from just picking some professional players ([[User:XxP1NKxX|XxP1NKxX]] ([[User talk:XxP1NKxX|talk]]) 19:13, October 2, 2021 (EDT))
:Pro guides has been infamously unreliable from what I know in the past. Other stat and system-based tier lists are also generally not as reliable. We're [[Forum:Tier list debate 2020: Part 1|currently doing an overhaul/major change to what tier lists we report]], and with DLC being completed by the end of the year, I'd doubt we have a concrete tier list here for at least another year or so. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:18, October 2, 2021 (EDT)

Okay, cool. I just thought that I’d put my thoughts out there. ([[User:XxP1NKxX|XxP1NKxX]] ([[User talk:XxP1NKxX|talk]]) 19:20, October 2, 2021 (EDT))

== New Brawl Tier List ==
Recently, the Brawl Bois community (basically the hub of SSBB discussions, who's player rankings have been accepted by the wiki) have worked on creating a new tier list. It has involvement from currently active players, former pros, and other respected players. As such, I think it'd be suitable for replacing the wiki's currently used tier list, but I'd like to make sure. If it does get accepted, I'll be available to edit any pages that need to be edited. [[User:Ehnkr2beboh|Ehnkr2beboh]] ([[User talk:Ehnkr2beboh|talk]]) 9:41, 16 September 2022 (EST)

== Tier list debate 2020 ==

I've been waiting years for the follow up to the tier list debate from 2020 (https://www.ssbwiki.com/Forum:Tier_list_debate_2020:_Part_1), and then suddenly there's a new Ultimate tier list posted to the page without any discussion. [[Special:Contributions/76.84.37.87|76.84.37.87]] 23:46, March 22, 2023 (EDT)
:There was a discussion about it [[Forum talk:Tier list debate 2020: Part 1|here]]. In short, during the time period in between, PG stats stepped forward as a replacement for the SmashBoards tier list organization, as in fact they were the organization responsible for the [[List of SSBM tier lists (NTSC)#Thirteenth tier list (March 29th, 2021)|current Melee tier list]]. However, PG stats' tier list was cancelled due to several controversies with the organization, then in the end UltRank stepped up to take their place. [[File:Toad.png|20px]] '''[[User:Omega Toad|<font color="#0BF">Ultimate Toad,</font>]] [[User talk:Omega Toad|<font color="blue">the Toad Warrior.</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Omega Toad|<font color="#7B5BEE">(I'm the best!)</font>]]''' 00:33, March 23, 2023 (EDT)
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 :I don't get what you are saying, nobody is calling Lucina broken? Lucina is generally considered a top tier character and is widely regarded as a better character than Marth competitively. The recent Marth buffs are moderate at best and take time to tell how much it affects the character. [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]]  [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 23:46, July 5, 2021 (EDT)
-:First, this is [[SW:TALK|not the proper use of talk pages]]. They are for discussing matters on the wiki and not why people think one character is "broken."
-:Second, Lucina isn't "broken," but she is more consistent in killing. Although Marth has tippers that can create early KOs, they are rather (and still infamously) inconsistent to the point where many people generally overlook him over Lucina. Now, their viability aren't that different in my opinion, but unfortunately Marth's representation compared to Lucina is abysmal, which is why people often rank Lucina higher.
-:Also, in what world would Lucina have trouble killing? Neutral air, Dolphin Slash, and even Dancing Blade are all rather effective ways for her to take a stock. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 00:04, July 6, 2021 (EDT)
 ==information that can change tiers==
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