Editing Forum:Link (SSBM)

{{Forumheader|Melee Talk}}<!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes: ~~~~ -->

I don't want this to be long, so just discuss about Link. From anything to how to make him better to his users, discuss everything. I want you guys to bring in your own opinions, all being accepted. How do you think anyone can make him better? Is there something we may have missed; and more importantly, are there secrets that I am holding about Link?

Discuss. [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 22:48, 23 November 2013 (EST)
:Melee is 12 years old, and has been played, analyzed, and dissected to and back; every single bit of frame and hitbox data of every move from every moveset has been uncovered and recorded, and it has been shown over and over what works and what doesn't. You're not going to "discover" anything new to make Link (or any character) "better" at this point, barring some crazy glitch that would be too convoluted to use anyway. There's nothing you can do to help with Link's inherently bad traits that keeps him from being able to viably compete, nothing of note has been "missed". What the tier list shows won't be changing in any significant way at this point, the most you can expect is a character being shown to be slightly better at even higher levels of play than a character or two above them.

:I also guarantee any "secrets" of yours are useless/impractical/negligible techs, or is information already known. 99.9% of the time "secret techniques" don't work. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 09:04, 24 November 2013 (EST)

::Oh, it's too bad, then. I guess I'll just keep all of my techniques to myself whenever I enter tournaments. Of course, you are always invited to come against me in a Melee Money Match (or when I get Brawl back, an Online Brawl Match, but that's for a different discussion). That's when I may surprise you. [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 20:20, 25 November 2013 (EST)
:::Haha, sure, I'll wifi you, and if you ever come around here, I'll money match you in both Melee and Brawl. Just don't be a Smash Master and bitch about the lag when your "secret techniques" don't work. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 00:39, 26 November 2013 (EST)
::::That would be nice, then. But I won't only use Link in Brawl (only in Melee). Also, do you have anything positive to say about Link? [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 00:52, 26 November 2013 (EST)

Ok as the primary active Melee player on the website here's what I have to say. Link is a mediocre character with a slew of neat tricks (none of which are your "secret techniques" posted on your page) but with those deceptively good traits comes an array of negative traits that hold Link back from being a fully viable character. 

Link's most notable trait his is fantastic zoning ability, having considerable disjoint on his hitboxes (not to Marth levels though) and 2 very, very useful projectiles (bombs and boomerangs) both of which give Link a surprisingly deadly combo game. Furthermore Link's attacks in general are fairly speedy and actually have a great deal of power, with 4 of them being great finishers. These moves are down air, up air, forward air, and spin attack and all of them can be set up by the projectiles I mentioned earlier. Another 1 of Link's positives is his recovery. Link's spin attack gives him a good amount of distance to recover high or he can do a wall grapple out of an air dodge to recover low. Link can also extend his recovery by bomb jumping (up b'ing into thrown bomb). Link is also a fairly heavy character so he can be sent offstage quite a few times and recover safely before he is sent off the stage permanently. 

Now here comes the bad things about Link. His biggest weakness is his lack of mobility options to help him zone. Melee is an extremely fast past game and the majority of top tier characters are separated from the rest of the cast simply due to their ability to outmaneuver them. Yes, some characters like Falco, Peach, and Ganon have only average or limited mobility, but make up for it by having strong defensive tools to punish movement. Link doesn't have that. While he can swat opponents away with the tools I mentioned above, he cannot move away from opponents quickly. Link has a slow running animation, a subpar dash dash, a short and slow wavedash, and a slow jump and poor air speed. This ironically makes him easy to corner and Link has few tools to deal with corner pressure having only a spin attack out of shield. The next problem is Link's weight. While it does give him a good crouch cancel and longevity against single hits, it augments Link's difficulty of getting out of pressure or combos when cornered. 

Now a bit more general advice from me. First of all, listen to people more experienced than you and don't talk like you can revolutionize the game when actually you don't know anything. I'm a reasonable person but given that make false claims about Link AND the fact you aren't by any means a notable player at all, I have to conclude you're not too great at the game and thus can't take your claims seriously. Drop the act dude. While he isn't a bad character, Link has no hidden game-breaking potential. May you be enlightened soon. --<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 03:06, 26 November 2013 (EST)

Now with Brawl Link, he again has his projectiles and great reach, his neat tricks, and he has even better KO power than he did in Melee, with the KO attacks Brian mentioned being even stronger (bar uncharged Spin Attack), his smashes being stronger and more reliable, and his forward/up tilts can KO reliably now as well. Link additionally has the best vertical momentum cancelling, tying him with DK for third best maximum vertical endurance, and his horizontal endurance, while much worse, is still pretty good.

That's about where the good ends for Brawl Link. See those mobility problems Brian mentioned? It's even worse for Link in Brawl, as he's one of the few characters to have their air speed nerfed; he went from having an air speed value of 1, good for 6th best in Melee, down to .8084, sixth worst in Brawl (and third worst among returning characters). Link did get a useable DACUS, but since his up smash takes so long to complete, it can only be used as an attack option and not as an movement option like Snake's. Additionally Link's attacks are really slow, and he lacks a really fast attack, with his fastest ground attack being his jab at 7 frames and fastest aerial being bair at 6 frames (for comparison, Ganondorf is the only character in Brawl whose fastest attack is even slower than this, and even then he can use WizQuake to produce a 2 frame attack if he doesn't care about the tremendous ending lag). As a result, Link has an inclose game that is worse than everyone else's bar maybe Ganon, and is perhaps the worst character at escaping pressure.

So you might be thinking "ok, I'll just my projectiles and superior reach to keep people out!". However, it doesn't quite work that way, as Link's projectiles are really mediocre, as they aren't really effective when they land and Link can't fire them fast enough or combine them with great mobility to reliably keep opponents out. As a result, Link will lose projectile wars against most other characters that have true projectiles (being really only able to beat Zelda, Luigi, and Mr. Game & Watch (and Kirby if you count the laughable Final Cutter as a true projectile)), while not being particularly difficult for characters that lack them to approach. And while Link does have great reach, his zair is his only good spacer, as the rest of his attacks are too laggy to be unpunishable, even when spaced. So Link is pretty much the worst at camping and keeping opponents out when it comes to the characters that can do it, while also being perhaps the worst character inclose, and being terrible at initiating approaches. This is a fatal combination that will result in a low tier placement in any of the smash games.

The final nail in the coffin for Link though is his recovery. Brian mentioned how his recovery was actually pretty good in Melee, and was one of his greatest strengths. Well in Brawl, it been nerfed to hell, with his air speed going from great to one of the worst, his falling speed being faster (relative to the cast), his wall-grapple being replaced with the inferior tether recovery, bomb jumping no longer being possible, and Spin Attack gaining very poor distance while also now heavily relying on momentum (if Link is not moving forward when using it, it gains no horizontal distance whatsoever, meaning a semi-spike of any strength will prevent recovery). This all results in a recovery that gains terrible distance (its natural distance is so bad Link is one of the few characters in Brawl that can fail a recovery from the standard horizontal trajectory on a standard stage by simply being knocked back too far) while being heavily gimpable (and Link doesn't have good means to fend off edge-guarders while Spin Attack doesn't offer much protection). Link's recovery has been argued to be the worst, with Ivysaur being the only character who is generally agreed to have a worse recovery. His terrible recovery significantly compromises Link's superb endurance potential, and as a result Link's survivability as a whole is pretty poor, with him dying quickly unless he's against a character who heavily relies on vertical KO moves of non-overwhelming power and lack any gimping capability whatsoever (which is pretty much just Zelda, who then has her down smash to kill Link early anyway).

So yeah, Link is a bonafide bottom tier character, and there's nothing "left to discover" nor "secret techniques" that can be done to help with his very significant flaws. Well, he's definitely better than Zelda at least, so Link will never have the title of worst character in Brawl. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 05:56, 26 November 2013 (EST)

:Let me point out various things that give you guys better insight:
1) Great finishers do not only include those four moves. They also include '''U-Tilt and D-Smash when combined with D-Throw''', S-Smash and a perfectly landed Recovery attack (at higher percentages).

2) His "lack of mobility" is also a myth. He is barely less mobile than Peach, for example. He has almost equivalent Air Speed, Faster Ground Speed and faster, less laggy attacks. The only weakness is the height of the jump and fast-falling. Link makes up for this with his N-air, which I will explain next.

3a) The most commonly underrated attack of Link's is his N-air, which is commonly thought of as very weak. This is also not true, as subpar as it is at lower percentages, when percentages hit 50-70 (depending on character weight), his N-air becomes quite viable to the point that not even "teching" is a good option to escape it; this is due to the fact that Link's N-air has very fast end lag and good knockback at high percentages.

3b) Now here's the fun part; Link's N-air, also due to its disjointed hitbox and fast attack time, is actually a good gimping attack. Take Fox, for example; he starts to charge his recovery and Link jumps off the edge to Fox's position. Link uses his N-air to send Fox even further than before, and still has his second jump to recover back to the stage.

3c) As a final insight of Link's N-air, any character who may be light and/or floaty will have extreme difficulty against Link's N-air. This is because Link can actually send opponents upwards if the hitbox is just under the opponent while Link jumps.

4) If you want a true Zero-to-Death combo, use Link's S-Smash>D-Tilt at the edge of any stage. Your opponent will either jump and try to attack or stay in the hurt animation, giving Link time to Meteor Smash the opponent. '''Sometimes your opponent may actually go through the stage.'''

5a) Link has a slew of hidden tactics. An example is the use of his Down Smash. After 14% damage, Link can use his D-Throw>D-Smash strategy. However, on opponents like Fox, Falco and C. Falcon, Link can use his D-Smash multiple times before linking into a combo. So basically, his D-Smash is a combo starter.

5b) If you really want some combos, try, '''at higher percentages''', using Link's U-Tilt>B-Air>B-Air and finish off with his Spin Attack. You can also D-Throw>U-Special/D-Smash at high percentages to keep the opponent at bay, either vertically or horizontally.

6) His jab attack can cancel out into either his Tilts or even Smash attacks. See, due to the low ending lag of his second jab, as well as its trapping capability, Link can damage opponents more than his normal jab combo. Try AA>S-Tilt, for example. It has roughly the same speed as his normal jab, and the opponent won't have enough time to react before it strikes; at higher percentages, it's basically a KO move.

7) Link can take advantage of characters that are sent upwards and have not begun to fall. See, if the opponent did not begin their falling animation, Link can take advantage and use his powerful aerial attacks (F-air or U-Air are the best for this situation) and dominate against characters, despite his supposed "poor mobility".

You cannot prejudge a character because of their mobility alone. You have to think outside the box, try doing something you don't normally do, and you'll be surprised at what you can actually discover. While I agree with most of what Link's weaknesses are in ''Melee'', there are overwhelming strengths left undiscovered. [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 12:30, 26 November 2013 (EST)
:How much have you played other people (and not just casual friends, but actual competent players)? Because most things that work on CPUs do not work on competent human players, and that stuff you listed are examples of such stuff (especially that "0-death" f-tilt to d-tilt "combo", I absolutely guarantee that would never work on an actual competent player, and even if you landed the meteor, it wouldn't kill anyone at a measly 14%). Brian can go into elaboration on why exactly the stuff you listed is bullshit (as I assume this is all Melee stuff here), but I'll just say now that if your experience is entirely CPUs and casual friends, then you will not have any idea on what will actually work and what doesn't in competitive play. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 12:47, 26 November 2013 (EST)

::You keep arguing on and on about how Link has all these hidden tactics and combos. You treat it as if those are simple things that any player can land at any time. "Oh, just down smash the opponent. Oh, just utilt them. Oh, just lure them to the edge and then fsmash dtilt for a guaranteed KO." The problem lies in how you get these to actually begin. No competent player is going to take your bait to approach them to the side of the stage when they're comfortably in the center. And if they did, they would come at you with tons of shield pressure that ensures you stay in a little bubble while they chip away at your defenses bit by bit until it breaks. You're not going to get many opportunities to begin any of those "combos" in high-level play because your opponent will never let you get away with those things. And guess what? Any character has their insane share of improbable combos that only work on weaker players. Take, for example, Mew2King sandbagging with Pichu and abusing his fast movement speed to overwhelm weaker players while smacking them off the stage with nair nair nair nair nair. So does Pichu have "hidden potential?" Is Pichu top tier just because it can potentially nair a bad player from mid-percent to a guaranteed KO, despite all of its weaknesses? Overall, a lot of the things you're arguing are things you can do in the game, no doubt. However, most other low tier characters have "undiscovered" combos that only work on inexperienced players, and they won't ever be able to use them against any smasher deserving of a professional title. --[[User:Timson622222|Timson622222]] ([[User talk:Timson622222|talk]]) 13:00, 26 November 2013 (EST)

:::'''@OmegaTyrant:''' Actually, I have played with multiple people. Not only friends (who play competitively), but also other, yet less notable, Smashers. They usually choose top tier characters, whereas I choose Link. I actually discovered my tactics '''because''' of these guys. As well, I have been playing the game since 2002.

:::Also, as you tried arguing against my Zero-to-Death combo, Omega, you just made it sound like you didn't know anything. Let me show you why:

:::You said: '''"(especially that "0-death" f-tilt to d-tilt "combo", I absolutely guarantee that would never work on an actual competent player, and even if you landed the meteor, it wouldn't kill anyone at a measly 14%)"'''

:::However, did I say F-Tilt? Let's read my number 4 again:

:::I said: '''"4) If you want a true Zero-to-Death combo, use Link's S-Smash>D-Tilt at the edge of any stage. Your opponent will either jump and try to attack or stay in the hurt animation, giving Link time to Meteor Smash the opponent. Sometimes your opponent may actually go through the stage."'''

:::I '''never said F-Tilt>D-Tilt, 14% death or anything of the such!''' I said S-Smash>D-Tilt! Use both S-Smash attacks then deal the D-Tilt. You will still be within Meteor Smash range. Also, the Zero-to-Death combo doesn't always have to be near the edge. There will be some instances where the opponent will '''fall through the stage!''' Read my inquiries again, Omega, as you are severely mistaken. [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 16:03, 26 November 2013 (EST)
::::Do you expect yourself to just camp at the ledge until your opponent is stupid enough to dash over and then you roll behind them, side smash and then down tilt, hoping that they don't meteor cancel, or that they somehow "fall through the stage?" Citation needed, because unless you're playing on a custom stage with a single fall-through platform I'm pretty sure tournament legal stages are solid enough to obey the laws of physics. Also, which non-notable Smashers have you even played? I can guarantee you that anyone falling within your preset boundary of a "other, yet less notable, Smasher" is a quasi-competitive player who looked at the SWF tier list once, took it as the word of God, and changed their main to Fox or Falco, not knowing that they in fact play them horribly and their playstyles do not suffice for space animals. In fact, I'm willing to bet that you learned all your combos from them because they were bad, and their lack of technical and cerebral ability allowed you to get a ton of free punishes.

::::The whole thing about all of the combos you listed is that they are '''possible.''' They are just not always '''practical.''' In competitive play, professionals are not going to fall for a fsmash dtilt combo. They will not let you down smash them blindly without punishment. In fact, watch this [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adr_wtf0WkQ&t=4m43s clip from InternetExplorer v.s. Teczero] which shows that your down throw to down smash strategy does not work, even after 14%- as you can see InternetExplorer pummeled Sheik, getting her up to 16%, then down threw her, but she [[tech]]ed the down throw and IE was immediately left for punishment.

::::I am not as knowledgeable in ''Melee'' and ''Brawl'' as Brian or OT, and this is pretty much the extent of what I can say, but I've said what I could, and here's a conclusion that wraps up my comment in a nice little take-out bag before Brian walks over your theory: You need to learn the difference between what works against no tech skill casual players and what works against professionals who actually know what they're doing. --[[User:Timson622222|Timson622222]] ([[User talk:Timson622222|talk]]) 16:43, 26 November 2013 (EST)

:::::Ah, I watched the clip. If that situation happens, I would always have to dash and Spin Attack. But knowing Sheik, it's quite hard to perform that type of combo (D-Throw>D-Smash) due to Sheik having a pseudo-fast fall speed. However, if it's used against Fox or Falco, their fast-fall speeds, being faster than Sheik's, can make it to where they '''will most likely''' be hit by the Down Smash. But not necessarily would anyone have to use D-Throw, however, but actually skip to Down Smash and hit from there. But you have to have the damage '''exactly at 14% damage after the throw''' for it to really be effective.

:::::Next, did you see the knockback of Link's N-air in the same clip? It had significant knockback, and could have been combo'd into.

:::::Also, if the opponent isn't within range of KO in my Zero-to-Death combo, the D-Tilt Meteor will slam the opponent onto the stage and possibly off the stage momentarily. This gives you enough time to hit with a Spin Attack Semi-Spike because the opponent would have wasted their second jump and recovery to come back.

:::::Finally, I would like to state that using AA>S-Tilt is better than the full jab combo, because it racks up more damage and has much more knockback.[[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 17:15, 26 November 2013 (EST)

::::::If the d-throw -> d-smash thing only works at 14% after the throw, then it's extremely situational, and if the opponent knows you want to do it, you're just going to get really predictable. Very character-specific too. And i don't see how his down smash is useful at percentages like that.

::::::Link's nair has mediocre knockback and it's an okay gimping tool. Sure it can be combo'd into, but read what Timson said above: ''You keep arguing on and on about how Link has all these hidden tactics and combos. You treat it as if those are simple things that any player can land at any time. ... The problem lies in how you get these to actually begin. ...''

::::::If the down tilt hits the opponent onstage, they will get sent up or, if they were in the air, knocked onto the ground. I don't know what the hell can cause them to ''/slide off the stage/'' at that point. Elaborate.

::::::For the jab/f-tilt thing, okay, but that doesn't address anything that was said before. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 17:35, 26 November 2013 (EST)

F-smash to d-tilt is even more idiotic, the opponent is going to be able to react long before the ending lag wears off and you could pull off a d-tilt, competent players don't just stand there after you hit them.

"''Also, if the opponent isn't within range of KO in my Zero-to-Death combo, the D-Tilt Meteor will slam the opponent onto the stage and possibly off the stage momentarily. This gives you enough time to hit with a Spin Attack Semi-Spike because the opponent would have wasted their second jump and recovery to come back.''"

You haven't played any competent players, as this would never work in tournament. One, '''you can meteor cancel instantly''', so if you actually hit someone with the d-tilt meteor, they'll just jump right back up before you can react at such low damage. Two, '''you have to actually read what the opponent will do'''. Competent players don't recover like CPUs, they won't just jump right back up to you and use their recovery move in predictable fashion. They will mix things up, time the use of their jump and recovery move(s) differently, recover at different angles, sweetspot the ledge, or recover right at you offensively. This is not reliable or in any way a "combo". Three, this also ignores that Link's d-tilt has a ridiculously small sweetspot on a landlocked move, and that you would be hard pressed to actually land the damn thing in the first place. "F-smash to d-tilt" is the most ridiculously asinine "zero-death combo" I ever seen someone seriously suggest, and it's just so laughable you're actually arguing as if it's a serious game changing combo.

"''Actually, I have played with multiple people. Not only friends (who play competitively), but also other, yet less notable, Smashers. They usually choose top tier characters, whereas I choose Link. I actually discovered my tactics because of these guys.''"

Tell me then, what have these people done then? What tournaments have they been to? What are their smasher names? Playing with tournament rules against casual friends doesn't make you competitive. You know, this reminds me of another Link player I stomped who claimed one of his friends was some national level tournament player he can beat up, and then when he gave me the name and I looked him up, turned out it was some random AiB guy that didn't have a single tournament result. And your friends "using top tier characters" doesn't matter if they're terrible and don't play the characters correctly anyway.

"''As well, I have been playing the game since 2002.''"

This is completely irrelevant if you just been a fish in a puddle the whole time. I've been playing Smash since 2003, and I was nowhere near a competitive level in Melee until maybe recently (and even then it's at a low level), and I was playing Brawl since release and I was a just mid-level player in a weak region during my first tournament in 2011 (and I did better at my first tourney than 99% of players do). Then there's the many other players I know who have been playing Smash forever with tournament rules, and are nowhere near a competitive level. Point is, how long you have played doesn't mean a damn thing if you been in a puddle playing just CPUs and casual friends the whole time. You won't know what will actually work in practise against competent players, and you need to play better players to actually get better yourself.

"''There will be some instances where the opponent will fall through the stage!''"

Because banking on a glitch that will pretty much never happen is totally reliable, amirite? (Hell, I been playing the game as long as you have, and never once saw an instance of someone "falling through the stage" from being meteor smashed onstage. You're seriously going to act like this is a realistic outcome?)

Also, just a general statement in general, what is it with you Link players, that never been to a single tournament before, going on about how Link has some hidden untapped potential, years after the games have come out? When the Sonic players claimed their character to be criminally underrated, it was one, shortly after Brawl's release (and not years after when the metagame has been stabilised and established), and two, they actually went out and started placing in tournaments, actually using Sonic in ways that weren't seen before, instead of just whining on random Smash sites about it. And with Brawl Ganon players, they recognise he's the worst character in the game and revel in his terribleness, instead of going around trying to tell everyone how they're wrong and don't know Ganon's "hidden potential". 

As for some general advice for you Requiem of Ice, '''go to some damn tournaments''', before you try to seriously talk anymore about the competitive aspects of the game in an authoritative manner. With the R.O.B. thing from before, you already shown your knowledge about Smash characters is suspect at best, and is completely wrong and laughable otherwise. And when you try claiming something like "f-smash to d-tilt" as a legitimate "zero-death combo", while also claiming the opponent will recover in the exact perfect way for it to work, and that it can be relied on from a random extremely rare (if not nonexistent altogether) glitch occurring, you quite clearly show a gross misunderstanding of what actually works in competitive Smash and how competent players will actually play. Additionally, if you're the messiah of Link as you claimed to be, and got all these secret techniques and combos to crush everyone, then go to tournaments and do it. Not only would you prove yourself right and win this respect for Link you so desperately want, but also win yourself a lot of easy money in the process. If you're completely right, you have nothing to lose to go on a road trip and start sweeping these tournaments up. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 03:58, 27 November 2013 (EST)

:'''@OmegaTyrant''': Tisk, tisk, tisk. You didn't understand a word I said? The opponent, '''no matter what''' will '''NOT''' be able to react, let alone recover, in time with the combo. And even if they did (which is highly unlikely), their best chance to recover would either be by jumping or recovery move; but even then, it would ultimately fail. Hell, you can even just replace D-Tilt with Up Special to semi-spike your opponent; now let's see what happens then (most likely edgehogging).

:And you stated you are a "low ranked player". I simply laugh at this; I've been to tournaments, but again, they are Louisiana only tournaments (which again, Louisiana is tough). If I had the time (and the money), I would enter nationwide or worldwide tournaments. Now, I want to go against you in a MoneyMatch, but it would simply cost me too much money to get to you.

:'''@Scr7''': Now, I will elaborate on how the glitch works; it works sort of like an illusion. Now, let me give you a how to, to do it:

:Get a person who can DI very well (not that it would actually matter), have infinite time and use Link against Fox. Now make sure he is near the edge, but '''not on the edge'''. Now for the fun. Use Link's S-Smash twice, and then use his D-Tilt when the timing is '''just right'''. What should actually happen is that Fox should be shot in an '''upside down, reverse "L" angle''', giving the illusion of being shot through the stage.

:However, what makes it very unique, is that Fox, nor any opponent within KO range, will be able to grab a ledge. [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 16:00, 27 November 2013 (EST)
::"''The opponent, '''no matter what''' will '''NOT''' be able to react, let alone recover, in time with the combo. And even if they did (which is highly unlikely), their best chance to recover would either be by jumping or recovery move; but even then, it would ultimately fail. Hell, you can even just replace D-Tilt with Up Special to semi-spike your opponent; now let's see what happens then (most likely edgehogging).''"

::I'm beginning to have grave doubts that you ever actually played anyone. The player will get out of hitstun '''well before you could hit them with d-tilt''', where are then '''free to recover however they want'''. People do not recover like CPUs, '''they will not just recover straight into your d-tilt or Spin Attack or whatever''', they can delay their recovery, recover above you, sweetspot the ledge, just hit you, etc. Again, stop playing against the CPUs and casual friends, and play some actual competent players. This is not a "combo" in any shape or form, nor would it ever work in a real match against an actually competent player.

::"''And you stated you are a "low ranked player". I simply laugh at this; I've been to tournaments, but again, they are Louisiana only tournaments (which again, Louisiana is tough). If I had the time (and the money), I would enter nationwide or worldwide tournaments. Now, I want to go against you in a MoneyMatch, but it would simply cost me too much money to get to you.''"

::Tell me the names of the players you beaten then, give me links to the tournament results. If you been to actual legit tournaments, in a strong region, you will be able to give some legitimate names and legitimate results. If you can't give me this, then it's clear you are speaking out of your ass. And if Louisiana is such a strong region that you dominate, you should be able to have the money to travel to national tournaments (as well as competitive buddies to travel with to ease costs), so don't go saying you go to these tournaments and win, then say you don't have the money. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 16:25, 27 November 2013 (EST)

::You failed to address Omega Tyrant's points. You continue to assume that your combos are things that can be done on every player and no one will be able to react to them. You assume blanket statements such as "''even if they did, their best chance to recover would either be by jumping or recovery move''" as if all players are as incompetent as to recover in the same way because you've probably been playing CPUs and casual players all your life who have switched their mains to top tiers, such as Fox or Falco, after looking at the SWF tier list once and taking it as the word of God, not realizing how much their playstyles must change to be able to control a space animal. I could also assume very similar blanket statements; once again, refer to my Pichu example. Since Mew2King can bait bad players into approaching him in predictable ways and then neutral air them all the way across the stage, that must mean Pichu has hidden untapped potential, right? What about DJ Nintendo or Gimpyfish, who make reads with Bowser like a master and punish terrible players for every little moment they slip up? Does Bowser have hidden untapped potential? t1mmy's Kirby? Kirbyciding against bad players at the ledge? Is Kirby top tier because he can get a zero-to-death on bad players by sucking them up and falling down into the abyss, only to recover shortly after due to the game's mechanics of KOing the enemy before Kirby? Do all of these characters have untapped potential just because of situational things they pull off on poor or unexpecting players?

::Every one of your "combos" have been proven situational; you've even proved some of them are situational yourself. If, considering your down smash combo actually works, said combo only works at 14%, what are the applications of it in competitive play? How much ignominy would you draw towards yourself if you looked at the percentage meter quasi-religiously, waiting on that 14% to show up so you can juggle them with a laggy move? If your side smash dtilt glitch only works when an enemy is a certain distance away from the ledge '''and is willing to cooperate with you on said glitch by allowing you to side smash them twice before down tilting them''' then what's the use of it in serious conditions? If side smash dtilt/up-B actually works then why don't we see any KOs in top level play using that combo? It doesn't even work anyways. A semi-spike does not beget an instant KO. If that were the case the entire metagame would just be Fox and Falco down smashing, Captain Falcon using up aerial, and Dr. Mario spamming back aerial. At low percentages, semi-spikes will send enemies with low knockback just like most other moves. A meteor smash doesn't beget a free KO, either! At low percentages enemies can meteor cancel instantly, and then recover easily. (Before you say that they "can't react," realize that it's one of those blanket statements that you draw a conclusion from based solely off of your experience with non-competitive friends or CPUs.) For your side smash to flow into down tilt or up special, the opponent must be at low percentage, where it will never KO. At even mid-percentage your first hit of side smash will knock them too far away for you to follow up with anything. Your combos do not work on opponents who know what they're doing.

::The strongest/most notable regions of ''Melee'' in the USA are California, Florida, Tristate, and some areas of Arizona/Texas/Washington from what I know. Louisiana, to my knowledge, is one of those states where there are just a handful of good players ({{sm|Nicknyte}} is probably the only good player who's achieved national recognition from the state, and he now lives in Arizona) with a dormant Smash scene. Prove to me that there are Smashers from Louisiana who have entered big tournaments like Apex, EVO, Zenith, GENESIS, or Pound. If not, you should be able to attend tournaments hosted in Louisiana and get a decisive 2nd or 3rd place. And it's pretty scary to see that most of the Smashers on the ''Brawl'' Louisiana Power Rankings are players I've never heard of before who have not placed in aforementioned tournaments, and that there is no ''Melee'' Power Ranking for the region at all. If you haven't been to a tournament or at least uploaded some of your matches to a video hosting site to let us know exactly '''how you play and who you play against''', you have no right to "simply laugh at" Omega Tyrant, who has put the time and effort into developing his ''Brawl'' gameplay and actually gone to tournaments against competent players to prove himself. Even if he considers himself a low-ranked player, I'd rather take his word than a player who has no rank at all. --[[User:Timson622222|Timson622222]] ([[User talk:Timson622222|talk]]) 16:48, 27 November 2013 (EST)
:::For the record, I said I was low level at Melee, not Brawl. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 16:57, 27 November 2013 (EST)
::::You know what? I just now realized something. The tier list is just a piece of bullshit that has no commonplace in this world. Izaw was correct on tier lists; they don't truly exist, and guess what? I don't care about them anymore, I don't believe in them anymore, I don't give two tons about them; to hell with Smash World Forums.
::::And you know what else? The only reason I play Smash Bros. is because I made a promise to my friend that I'd beat her one day. She always dominates me on Melee, no matter what I tried before. She played in tournaments, but never went to the major leagues. Hell, you probably don't even know her, so I'll tell you who she is; SmasherLink. She's still recovering from the comatose state she was in; and I am glad to have her as a friend, not you people. She knows more about Smash Bros. than you guys combined; the character she plays as mainly is Ganondorf, then Link, then Marth.
::::I only wanted to post these combos because I am jealous of her. She techs better than me, gimps better than me, and her DI and MC are extraordinary. [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 20:23, 27 November 2013 (EST)
:::::Let's go back to your original question before this whole zero-to-death thing. Can Link be improved in the metagame? Probably not. We already have noticeable Links like InternetExplorer that use him well, but cannot place as high as top level in higher tiers. If you want to use an improved Link, use him in Project M, not in Melee. Link was not designed well enough to do well (this game wasn't made to be competitive remember that). And don't get into the Tier List discussion, Semicolon made a whole article on it, read it please. <font style="font-family:arial narrow">[[User:LightningBlue|<font style="color:royalblue">'''Lightning'''</font>]][[User talk:LightningBlue|<font style="color:darkblue">'''Blue'''</font>]]</font>[[File:405MS.png|link=Special:Contributions/LightningBlue]] 20:44, 27 November 2013 (EST)
:::::If you '''truly''' have a friend you want to overcome, the way to do it is not to argue that Link is top tier on SmashWiki and post a bunch of combos in multiple forums expressing an assumed "hidden potential." '''Go to tournaments and place well.''' Making yourself look like an idiot in front of everyone by arguing that a low tier character is actually top tier with non-concrete evidence does not serve to do anything.
:::::And yes, as Blue said, maybe you would like to try playing [[Project M]] if you want to discover new things and combos about Link. But stop making entire forums about why Link is the best in ''Melee'' and try to argue your position based off of your experience with mostly CPUs and non-competent friends. Link will not get any better in ''Melee'' or ''Brawl'', because there are already professionals who have found everything there is to know about Link and some more, but have failed to place very well in tournaments. Situational combos do not improve Link's metagame and have likely already been experimented with.
:::::(also momentum cancelling doesn't exist in ''Melee'' so ????????) --[[User:Timson622222|Timson622222]] ([[User talk:Timson622222|talk]]) 20:51, 27 November 2013 (EST)
::::::Oh yeah, I almost forgot about Link in Project M. I need to get that! And Timson, when I said MC, I meant Meteor Cancelling.
::::::And now I got to ask. Do you guys think "Slide Smashes" exist in Melee? Please reply. '''Edit:''' I just played Project M and Link...is...amazing. [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 21:44, 27 November 2013 (EST)
:::::::Would you mind listing a bunch of players you play/beat in tournaments regularly? [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 23:46, 27 November 2013 (EST)
::::::::Not off the top of my head. I've only been to a few tournaments and can't recognize any of the players. But I'm playing Project M (I call it '''SSBM HD Remake''') now, so I'm occupied. [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 23:54, 27 November 2013 (EST)

I heard of this SmasherLink, and guess what, they're a person infamous for being a Link that posted a bunch of "combos" that didn't work, while also never going to tournaments. SmasherLink even created a vanity smasher article for themselves here, that ended up getting deleted because they had no tournament results and were not notable. If you weren't better than SmasherLink, then you certainly don't have any notable skill yourself. SmasherLink was also [http://smashboards.com/threads/smasherlink-versus-the-mods-and-admins-loser-out.288728/ quite the troll] on Smashboards, and is not in any way a reputable smasher to look up to. Also, don't bring up your friend "recovering from being comatose" and this sob story about why you play Smash, as true or not, it's a blatant appeal to emotion and is completely irrelevant here.

As for Izaw, he may have placed pretty well with a character as terrible as Link, but he didn't outplace the best players of better characters. He did nothing to "disprove" tiers.

Now if SmasherLink is the only name you can give for "reputable smashers" you have played, then as said before, you have just been in a puddle playing CPUs and other deluded casual-competitives. It's actually pretty laughable now, that the smasher you bring up to show your credentials is infamous in the Smash community ''for doing what you're doing here''.

"''Not off the top of my head. I've only been to a few tournaments and can't recognize any of the players.''"

"I been to tournaments I swear! But I just can't remember them or the players!" So you have no tournament results nor any sort of credentials to your name.

Alright, here's the harsh reality kid. Characters aren't equal, tiers exist, and your favorite character isn't one of the good characters. Your friend was a deluded sham and at times troll, and the people outside your small puddle are much much better than the CPUs and deluded casual-competitives you been playing. The people who made the tier lists '''are far more knowledgeable and know far more about the Smash games than you and SmasherLink combined''', have probably put more total hours into the game and have certainly put more meaningful hours in, and '''are far better players than you or SmasherLink are near certainly ever going to be'''. At this point you're just a keyboard warrior, that is all talk and awful awful theorycraft. You can peacock your favorite character and SmasherLink all you want, the reality is you're a keyboard warrior and a minnow in a puddle, that doesn't know a damn thing about how competitive Smash actually plays. 

Now you can keep playing Link and such, that's perfectly fine, play who you want. But don't go around with a holier-than-thou attitude acting like you know more than the pros and that no one but you sees this "hidden potential" of your favorite low tier character, while you don't go to any tournaments whatsoever to prove it. You want to prove yourself right? Go to some damn tournaments and do it. I'm 100% certain you will get 0-2'd and absolutely crushed by the top tiers you claim you can beat up. But if you're so certain you're right, then what do you have to fear? And if money is such an issue, you'll just get your money back from the tournament and then some if you're right, and if you're so certain you're right, then you have absolutely nothing to fear. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 06:34, 28 November 2013 (EST)

''You know what? I just now realized something. The tier list is just a piece of bullshit that has no commonplace in this world. Izaw was correct on tier lists; they don't truly exist, and guess what? I don't care about them anymore, I don't believe in them anymore, I don't give two tons about them; to hell with Smash World Forums.''

Oh look, someone's getting butthurt! [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 11:04, 28 November 2013 (EST)
:That comment really wasn't necessary if the only thing you're going to say is "someone's getting butthurt". [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 12:14, 28 November 2013 (EST)

::I agree, Cardinal. What Scr7 said was rude. But I don't really care.
::And I don't stay long in tournaments to see the names on the results; I just go in and slap myself in there. Also, they are quite rare near me, so I'm bound not to remember anyone. But then again, I am addicted to Project M now, so forget about Melee. [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 14:09, 28 November 2013 (EST)

:::Whether I was rude or not, what you said shows that you have pretty much nothing to say about all of your remaining arguments being refuted. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 14:16, 28 November 2013 (EST)

::::Meh. I got a mod to master; and wait for the newest version. Just talk about Link in general in Melee. I don't really care about tiers anymore (though it's a different story about PLAYER rankings), and I'm too addicted to PM. When Sm4sh comes out, I hope both versions have a ranking system. [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 22:36, 28 November 2013 (EST)
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 ::::Meh. I got a mod to master; and wait for the newest version. Just talk about Link in general in Melee. I don't really care about tiers anymore (though it's a different story about PLAYER rankings), and I'm too addicted to PM. When Sm4sh comes out, I hope both versions have a ranking system. [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 22:36, 28 November 2013 (EST)
-"''And I don't stay long in tournaments to see the names on the results; I just go in and slap myself in there.''"
-Pretty much every legit tourney posts their results on Smashboards nowadays. If you been to legit tournaments and not just casual high school or anime convention tournaments, then there would be a results thread on Smashboards you could find (or the original tourney thread would have the results).
-"''Also, they are quite rare near me, so I'm bound not to remember anyone.''"
-Shitty memory isn't an excuse, I can remember virtually every player I ever played in even just a single friendly set, especially the players around my skill level or higher (and virtually every other player can remember the best players they were able to beat, regardless of how often they play). <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 09:03, 29 November 2013 (EST)
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